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OS kernels? Everything from numpy to CUDA to NCCL is using C/C++ (doing all the behind the scene heavy lifting), never mind the classic systems software like we

OS kernels? Everything from numpy to CUDA to NCCL is using C/C++ (doing all the behind the scene heavy lifting), never mind the classic systems software like web browsers, web servers, networking control plane (the list goes on).

lmm 10mo ago
Newer web servers have already moved away from C/C++. Web browsers have been written in restricted subsets of C/C++ with significant additional tooling for decades at this point, and are already beginning to move to Rust.
- drnick1 10mo ago
  There is not a single major browser written in Rust. Even Ladybird, a new project, adopted C++.
  - lmm 10mo ago
    Firefox and Chrome already contain significant amounts of Rust code, and the proportion is increasing.
    - vbezhenar 10mo ago
      https://github.com/chromium/chromium https://github.com/chromium/chromium : C++ 74.0%, Java 8.8%, Objective-C++ 4.8%, TypeScript 4.2%, HTML 2.5%, Python 2.4%, Other 3.3% https://github.com/mozilla-firefox/firefox https://github.com/mozilla-firefox/firefox : JavaScript 28.9%, C++ 27.9%, HTML 21.8%, C 10.4%, Python 2.9%, Kotlin 2.7%, Other 5.4% How significant?
      - estebank 10mo ago
        According to https://4e6.github.io/firefox-lang-stats/ https://4e6.github.io/firefox-lang-stats/, 12%. I would love an updated version of https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1flUGg6Ut4bjtyWdyH_9emD9EAN01ljTAVft2S4Dq620/htmlview#gid=885787479 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1flUGg6Ut4bjtyWdyH_9e... (which stops in 2020). For Chrome, I don't know if anyone has compiled the stats, but navigating from https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src/+/refs/heads/main/docs/rust.md#Status https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src/+/refs/heads/... I see at least a bunch of vendored crates, so there's some use, which makes sense since in 2023 they announced that they would support it.
- RealityVoid 10mo ago
  > Web browsers have been written in restricted subsets of C/C++ with significant additional tooling for decades at this point So, written in C/C++? It seems to me you're trying to make a point that reality doesn't agree with but you stubbornly keep pushing it.
  - lmm 10mo ago
    > So, written in C/C++? Not in the sense that people who are advocating writing new code in C/C++ generally mean. If someone is advocating following the same development process as Chrome does, then that's a defensible position. But if someone is advocating developing in C/C++ without any feature restrictions or additional tooling and arguing "it's fine because Chrome uses C/C++", no, it isn't.

lmm 10mo ago

Newer web servers have already moved away from C/C++. Web browsers have been written in restricted subsets of C/C++ with significant additional tooling for decades at this point, and are already beginning to move to Rust.

drnick1 10mo ago
There is not a single major browser written in Rust. Even Ladybird, a new project, adopted C++.
- lmm 10mo ago
  Firefox and Chrome already contain significant amounts of Rust code, and the proportion is increasing.
  - vbezhenar 10mo ago
    https://github.com/chromium/chromium https://github.com/chromium/chromium : C++ 74.0%, Java 8.8%, Objective-C++ 4.8%, TypeScript 4.2%, HTML 2.5%, Python 2.4%, Other 3.3% https://github.com/mozilla-firefox/firefox https://github.com/mozilla-firefox/firefox : JavaScript 28.9%, C++ 27.9%, HTML 21.8%, C 10.4%, Python 2.9%, Kotlin 2.7%, Other 5.4% How significant?
    - estebank 10mo ago
      According to https://4e6.github.io/firefox-lang-stats/ https://4e6.github.io/firefox-lang-stats/, 12%. I would love an updated version of https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1flUGg6Ut4bjtyWdyH_9emD9EAN01ljTAVft2S4Dq620/htmlview#gid=885787479 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1flUGg6Ut4bjtyWdyH_9e... (which stops in 2020). For Chrome, I don't know if anyone has compiled the stats, but navigating from https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src/+/refs/heads/main/docs/rust.md#Status https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src/+/refs/heads/... I see at least a bunch of vendored crates, so there's some use, which makes sense since in 2023 they announced that they would support it.
RealityVoid 10mo ago
> Web browsers have been written in restricted subsets of C/C++ with significant additional tooling for decades at this point So, written in C/C++? It seems to me you're trying to make a point that reality doesn't agree with but you stubbornly keep pushing it.
- lmm 10mo ago
  > So, written in C/C++? Not in the sense that people who are advocating writing new code in C/C++ generally mean. If someone is advocating following the same development process as Chrome does, then that's a defensible position. But if someone is advocating developing in C/C++ without any feature restrictions or additional tooling and arguing "it's fine because Chrome uses C/C++", no, it isn't.