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First of all, the entire post reads like it was written by AI. Secondly, the author / prompter misses the point entirely with this closing paragraph: > The ne

by sgarland 11mo ago

First of all, the entire post reads like it was written by AI. Secondly, the author / prompter misses the point entirely with this closing paragraph: > The next time a teacher complains about AI cheating, ask: If a machine can do this assignment perfectly, why are you giving it to this student?And then we can replace it with education and work that actually matters. You learn fundamentals because they are necessary for you to understand how the magic works, and because that’s how the human brain works. Is it important for you to be able to write a binary search algorithm perfectly from scratch? Not especially, no. Is it important for you to be able to describe what it’s doing, and why? Yes, very much so, because otherwise you won’t know when to use it. If your rebuttal to this is “we can feed the problem to AI and let it figure that out,” I don’t want to live in that world; where curiosity and thought are cast aside in favor of faster results.

ytoawwhra92 11mo ago
I was allowed to use a scientific calculator in all my high school math exams. My parents were shocked by this because it would've been considered cheating when they were in school. Homework, exams, essays, assignments and so on are all tools designed to help students achieve learning outcomes. Those tools are becoming less effective due to the technology to which the students now have access. Making adjustments to the educational tools makes more sense to me than banning the technology.
- denverllc 11mo ago
  > it would've been considered cheating when they were in school. Doubt. What field of study? The predominant calculation helper was slide rules, which were allowed in engineering exams in the 60s and 70s. Besides, in engineering you had to show all of your work and that had a large impact on the grade you got.
  - ytoawwhra92 11mo ago
    I said high school.
- sgarland 11mo ago
  I know this will come across as a trope, but a calculator doesn’t seem to me to be at the same level as AI in most circumstances. If we’re talking about grade school children who are learning multiplication, then yes, a calculator is unhelpful to their education. If we’re talking about a high school physics exam, it probably doesn’t matter if you can show your work on converting units so much as it does that you knew which formulae to use.
  - ytoawwhra92 11mo ago
    I think it's easy to say this now, because calculator technology is ubiquitous, assessment methods have been adapted to account for calculator use, and we now have multiple generations of adults who used calculators in schools as students. And yet the debate on calculator use in schools raged for a good 40 years or so before it quietened down - only to be replaced a short decade or two later by AI cheating. > If we’re talking about grade school children who are learning multiplication, then yes, a calculator is unhelpful to their education. FWIW, research doesn't support this: https://search.informit.org/doi/10.3316/INFORMIT.462445434680297 https://search.informit.org/doi/10.3316/INFORMIT.46244543468... https://www.jstor.org/stable/42802150?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents https://www.jstor.org/stable/42802150?seq=1#page_scan_tab_co... https://espace.library.uq.edu.au/view/UQ:176139 https://espace.library.uq.edu.au/view/UQ:176139
- array_key_first 11mo ago
  No, we should ban the technology, at least until we can somewhat verify the students understand the underlying concepts. Like, yes, we allow calculators for highschoolers. But we'd never give a calculator to a 3rd grader learning their times tables. Because then they'd never learn that 9 * 9 is 49, and now they're permanently handicapped in math. And now, when they are in high school, the calculator doesn't even matter, because they can't do math at a basic level. Or, consider reading. Certainly high schoolers can use audio books. But imagine if we didn't teach reading at all, and just used audio books, from kindergarten. Would anyone know how to read? I doubt it. Learning is unique in that it builds on lower-level stuff. If you just skip that stuff, sure, it might look efficient - but it's not. You actually learn much less if you do that. It's not like me at my job, where if I use AI I finish a project in half the time and I'm better off. No, if I learn in half the time, I've learned less!
  - ytoawwhra92 10mo ago
    > No, we should ban the technology, at least until we can somewhat verify the students understand the underlying concepts. I didn't learn how to prove addition until advanced math in late high school, so obviously there's a point at which we're comfortable glossing over the underlying concepts with young students and skipping to the parts that are actually meaningful to the learning outcomes that we've decided are appropriate for their age. > Like, yes, we allow calculators for highschoolers. But we'd never give a calculator to a 3rd grader learning their times tables. Because then they'd never learn that 9 * 9 is 49, and now they're permanently handicapped in math. And now, when they are in high school, the calculator doesn't even matter, because they can't do math at a basic level. Research doesn't support this. > Or, consider reading. Certainly high schoolers can use audio books. But imagine if we didn't teach reading at all, and just used audio books, from kindergarten. Would anyone know how to read? I doubt it. Right, so if the learning outcome is "the student knows how to read" we'd judge that teaching method a failure. I'm saying that our focus should be on helping students achieve learning outcomes, not on the tools we use to evaluate whether or not they've reached those learning outcomes. The point of education is the learning, not the evaluation, so when the tools used to complete the evaluations become useless due to technology we should be replacing those tools rather than clinging to them desperately.
bilbo0s 11mo ago
>I don’t want to live in that world; where curiosity and thought are cast aside in favor of faster results. To be fair, we, all of us, have been living in that world for quite some time now. Not really sure how we'd ever slow down our advance down that road?
CJefferson 11mo ago
I agree, by this argument why teach any child 2+2? This has been performed perfectly by computers for years.

ytoawwhra92 11mo ago

I was allowed to use a scientific calculator in all my high school math exams. My parents were shocked by this because it would've been considered cheating when they were in school. Homework, exams, essays, assignments and so on are all tools designed to help students achieve learning outcomes. Those tools are becoming less effective due to the technology to which the students now have access. Making adjustments to the educational tools makes more sense to me than banning the technology.

denverllc 11mo ago
> it would've been considered cheating when they were in school. Doubt. What field of study? The predominant calculation helper was slide rules, which were allowed in engineering exams in the 60s and 70s. Besides, in engineering you had to show all of your work and that had a large impact on the grade you got.
- ytoawwhra92 11mo ago
  I said high school.
sgarland 11mo ago
I know this will come across as a trope, but a calculator doesn’t seem to me to be at the same level as AI in most circumstances. If we’re talking about grade school children who are learning multiplication, then yes, a calculator is unhelpful to their education. If we’re talking about a high school physics exam, it probably doesn’t matter if you can show your work on converting units so much as it does that you knew which formulae to use.
- ytoawwhra92 11mo ago
  I think it's easy to say this now, because calculator technology is ubiquitous, assessment methods have been adapted to account for calculator use, and we now have multiple generations of adults who used calculators in schools as students. And yet the debate on calculator use in schools raged for a good 40 years or so before it quietened down - only to be replaced a short decade or two later by AI cheating. > If we’re talking about grade school children who are learning multiplication, then yes, a calculator is unhelpful to their education. FWIW, research doesn't support this: https://search.informit.org/doi/10.3316/INFORMIT.462445434680297 https://search.informit.org/doi/10.3316/INFORMIT.46244543468... https://www.jstor.org/stable/42802150?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents https://www.jstor.org/stable/42802150?seq=1#page_scan_tab_co... https://espace.library.uq.edu.au/view/UQ:176139 https://espace.library.uq.edu.au/view/UQ:176139
array_key_first 11mo ago
No, we should ban the technology, at least until we can somewhat verify the students understand the underlying concepts. Like, yes, we allow calculators for highschoolers. But we'd never give a calculator to a 3rd grader learning their times tables. Because then they'd never learn that 9 * 9 is 49, and now they're permanently handicapped in math. And now, when they are in high school, the calculator doesn't even matter, because they can't do math at a basic level. Or, consider reading. Certainly high schoolers can use audio books. But imagine if we didn't teach reading at all, and just used audio books, from kindergarten. Would anyone know how to read? I doubt it. Learning is unique in that it builds on lower-level stuff. If you just skip that stuff, sure, it might look efficient - but it's not. You actually learn much less if you do that. It's not like me at my job, where if I use AI I finish a project in half the time and I'm better off. No, if I learn in half the time, I've learned less!
- ytoawwhra92 10mo ago
  > No, we should ban the technology, at least until we can somewhat verify the students understand the underlying concepts. I didn't learn how to prove addition until advanced math in late high school, so obviously there's a point at which we're comfortable glossing over the underlying concepts with young students and skipping to the parts that are actually meaningful to the learning outcomes that we've decided are appropriate for their age. > Like, yes, we allow calculators for highschoolers. But we'd never give a calculator to a 3rd grader learning their times tables. Because then they'd never learn that 9 * 9 is 49, and now they're permanently handicapped in math. And now, when they are in high school, the calculator doesn't even matter, because they can't do math at a basic level. Research doesn't support this. > Or, consider reading. Certainly high schoolers can use audio books. But imagine if we didn't teach reading at all, and just used audio books, from kindergarten. Would anyone know how to read? I doubt it. Right, so if the learning outcome is "the student knows how to read" we'd judge that teaching method a failure. I'm saying that our focus should be on helping students achieve learning outcomes, not on the tools we use to evaluate whether or not they've reached those learning outcomes. The point of education is the learning, not the evaluation, so when the tools used to complete the evaluations become useless due to technology we should be replacing those tools rather than clinging to them desperately.

bilbo0s 11mo ago

>I don’t want to live in that world; where curiosity and thought are cast aside in favor of faster results. To be fair, we, all of us, have been living in that world for quite some time now. Not really sure how we'd ever slow down our advance down that road?

CJefferson 11mo ago

I agree, by this argument why teach any child 2+2? This has been performed perfectly by computers for years.