4 ms·

Can you tell me which Trump policies were pro-labor, pro-union, pragmatic, positive visions of the future? There was none. It turns out that actually you don'

by estearum 11mo ago

Can you tell me which Trump policies were pro-labor, pro-union, pragmatic, positive visions of the future? There was none. It turns out that actually you don't need pragmatic, positive visions of the future to win. In fact, we have plenty of evidence that pragmatic policies at all are a massive electoral liability when facing someone who is, again, willing to simply lie about everything. In Trump, you have clear evidence that people do not need pragmatic solutions to anything. Somehow you are pulling from that the conclusion that Democrats are not pragmatic enough. What makes you believe there is public appetite for pragmatic solutions? Enough to win a national election?

iamnothere 11mo ago
Trump does not offer real solutions, except as a sound bite in passing (to be later ignored). But in the absence of pragmatic policies that voters can get behind, the winner will always be the candidate who offers to tear down the system that has failed the people. Mark my words.
- estearum 11mo ago
  The reality is that sound bites have an intrinsic advantage over real solutions. Real solutions to complex problems are by their nature complex and uncertain (else the problem would've been solved already). "Immigrants are the problem" or "I will bring prices down on day one" have a fundamental memetic advantage that, in a lazy and unengaged populace, will win in 100% of scenarios. The real issue here is the GOP not holding themselves accountable to something better than suicidal demagoguery. The opposing party cannot prevent this from being successful. That's why it's a known, fundamental flaw of democracy.
  - iamnothere 11mo ago
    It sounds like you’re in a real spot of trouble then. If there are no solutions available. Maybe you can double down on the 2016/2024 strategy again.
    - estearum 11mo ago
      Again: you haven't actually provided any evidence of what the 2016/2024 strategy was, why 2020 was different, etc. You're doing the far lazier, "ascribe all failures to the thing I do not like, and all successes to the thing I do like." Evidence should be trivial to produce but you cannot. And yes, a major faction electing a demagogue is a real spot of trouble. It has been known as such literally since the invention of democracy. It wouldn't be considered a known vulnerability because it's solved by "well just talk about a pragmatic, positive vision for the future!" lmao
      - iamnothere 11mo ago
        The Atlantic summarizes the situation somewhat but with perhaps too much brevity: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/10/democratic-party-strategy-progressives/684453/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/10/democra... Evidence: I was there, do your own research if you care so much. This isn’t a formal debate, and anyone who has eyes, ears, and a brain can figure it out. You keep shouting demagogue, demagogue! As if anyone outside of the political class cares. Solve the people’s problems or there will be more (and worse) demagogues. It’s your only option.
        estearum 11mo ago
        We don't disagree that that's my (as someone on the anti-Trump side) only reasonable option. Where we disagree is your assertion that that is the necessary and sufficient solution. Those are entirely distinct claims. People have won elections for a long long time without pragmatic solutions to real problems (case in point: 2024). You have basically zero evidence this is even a relevant point in elections whatsoever. The actual necessary solution is entirely on the GOP's side. So long as they're in the throes of a cult of personality, then a sufficiently large part of the electorate will be immune to logic. And yes: this is very bad. It is a deeply inconvenient fact, but the inconvenience of it does not render it less factual.
        iamnothere 11mo ago

iamnothere 11mo ago

Trump does not offer real solutions, except as a sound bite in passing (to be later ignored). But in the absence of pragmatic policies that voters can get behind, the winner will always be the candidate who offers to tear down the system that has failed the people. Mark my words.

estearum 11mo ago
The reality is that sound bites have an intrinsic advantage over real solutions. Real solutions to complex problems are by their nature complex and uncertain (else the problem would've been solved already). "Immigrants are the problem" or "I will bring prices down on day one" have a fundamental memetic advantage that, in a lazy and unengaged populace, will win in 100% of scenarios. The real issue here is the GOP not holding themselves accountable to something better than suicidal demagoguery. The opposing party cannot prevent this from being successful. That's why it's a known, fundamental flaw of democracy.
- iamnothere 11mo ago
  It sounds like you’re in a real spot of trouble then. If there are no solutions available. Maybe you can double down on the 2016/2024 strategy again.
  - estearum 11mo ago
    Again: you haven't actually provided any evidence of what the 2016/2024 strategy was, why 2020 was different, etc. You're doing the far lazier, "ascribe all failures to the thing I do not like, and all successes to the thing I do like." Evidence should be trivial to produce but you cannot. And yes, a major faction electing a demagogue is a real spot of trouble. It has been known as such literally since the invention of democracy. It wouldn't be considered a known vulnerability because it's solved by "well just talk about a pragmatic, positive vision for the future!" lmao
    - iamnothere 11mo ago
      The Atlantic summarizes the situation somewhat but with perhaps too much brevity: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/10/democratic-party-strategy-progressives/684453/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/10/democra... Evidence: I was there, do your own research if you care so much. This isn’t a formal debate, and anyone who has eyes, ears, and a brain can figure it out. You keep shouting demagogue, demagogue! As if anyone outside of the political class cares. Solve the people’s problems or there will be more (and worse) demagogues. It’s your only option.
      - estearum 11mo ago
        We don't disagree that that's my (as someone on the anti-Trump side) only reasonable option. Where we disagree is your assertion that that is the necessary and sufficient solution. Those are entirely distinct claims. People have won elections for a long long time without pragmatic solutions to real problems (case in point: 2024). You have basically zero evidence this is even a relevant point in elections whatsoever. The actual necessary solution is entirely on the GOP's side. So long as they're in the throes of a cult of personality, then a sufficiently large part of the electorate will be immune to logic. And yes: this is very bad. It is a deeply inconvenient fact, but the inconvenience of it does not render it less factual.
        iamnothere 11mo ago