5 ms·

The author is a bit naive in his cheerleading, extrapolating his situation in his location to a nation-wide situation. That is just simply not the case. As a

by kfcm 14y ago

The author is a bit naive in his cheerleading, extrapolating his situation in his location to a nation-wide situation. That is just simply not the case. As a business-owner in my mid-40's, I travel around quite a bit. There are locations where the employment picture is similar to what the author describes. But what he describes is far from the norm in the places I travel to, or from what I hear from friends and old coworkers during lunches. Ageism, low-salaries, "sweatshop"-like/highly-political work environments, lack of diversity in companies/economic sectors, lack of interesting problems to solve. All are observations of mine, as well as old friends' concerns voiced softly after looking over their shoulder during lunches over the past year or two. Very good IT people (programmers/developers, DBAs, infrastructure, the whole gamut) wanting to leave their current job, but wondering where to go, because their friends in other "just as bad" companies are looking too. Discovering they can still get interviews--but maybe not the job--after age 35; and discovering the difficulty in even getting interviews after age 40. Watching their companies hire either H-1Bs for 40-50% of what they're paid, or college interns (or even recent grads for intern salaries) for even less. Yeah, people would like to be making this much money in technology when their 50. But in most places, it's a pipe-dream.

michaelochurch 14y ago
This is depressing but a realistic depiction of "how the other half programs". What are your thoughts on what puts people into that programming underclass (which definitely exists)?
- larrys 14y ago
  "thoughts on what puts people into that programming underclass" An example is the developer that just quoted me on setting up a server. He is charging me essentially his cost for the equipment and 3 hours at $50 per hour to set it up. I've seen this time and time again. Not able to price to what the market will bear. (He's in the midwest by the way and has a stunning resume and full time job working for a known company).
- nandemo 14y ago
  I don't know exactly what you mean by underclass (though I think I've seen a similar comment of yours), but one answer is what plinkplonk said in this thread: immigration restrictions, combined with the concentration of "elite" software companies in the US.
foohbarbaz 14y ago
Oh come on! I am in mid-forties and not just did not have any problems getting interviews, but also did not have any problems switching jobs a few months ago. Where I work we can't find enough decent devs for any money. H1-B is just a memory at that point. Mind you, this is not Silicon Valley, the market is quite a bit smaller (north Denver metro). Someone is either feeding you bad information or you are extrapolating and imagining things. Where I work, we have a very good team of developers and being mid 40-ies I am right in the middle of the pack. BTW, having been on H1-B 10 years ago, I can tell you that "40-50%" is not true either. So, what the heck are you talking about?
- kfcm 14y ago
  Apparently you didn't read my comment all that well. Re-read, and catch the "there are locations" where the article would be correct. You are falling into the same trap as the author of the original article. Just because Denver metro (or the Valley, DC, Minneapolis or a couple of other tech/government centers) are doing well, you're extrapolating that the rest of the nation is the same. I know there are places where the beer flows like wine. I'm here to tell you in many--if not most--places where I roam (primarily in the midwest), that is not the case. Ageism is a serious concern, along with companies doing what they can to lower "human capital" costs while still extracting as much work as possible. Infrastructure is somewhat immune to this, as well as smaller towns (25-50K and smaller, some distance away from larger metros) where they can't retain or recruit younger workers as easily. As for being fed bad information, you haven't seen the look on friends' faces who've remained in tech when they talk about their concerns and experiences. 10-20% paycuts 3-4 years ago which have not bounced back. Two different companies recently resetting position titles from "Senior Position" to "Position II" for those with 15-20 years experience. Watching any open positions be filled with H-1Bs, college interns or recent grads at intern salaries. Hearing about apparent tech Nirvanas in other metros, and being unable to leave because they'd uproot their family. The look on their faces may not be fear for their future, but it is a deep concern/worry.
  - rhizome 14y ago
    Of course "there are locations," there are always locations. It's hard to be an oil derrick worker in the middle of Manhattan, and that's not because the cost of living there is so high.
parasitius 14y ago
Yeah come to Ohio ya'all. At mid-$20k salaries, the only reason to be a developer over other jobs is that you have higher social status. Every single friend I have who didn't go to college is making $35k+ in factories or whathaveyou -- and no $50k college debt loan burden either.
_yosefk 14y ago
I think ageism is "the" problem that you point out, because this is why people can't even get an interview after age 40, right? There are employers biased against older candidates, I guess - though not near me, not to the point where I'm able to get all the good candidates aged 40 and up for peanuts, and it's not like I'm not searching, goodness knows. But I think this is going to get better over time, as the masses of young programmers who entered the profession during and after the .com bubble age. In particular, you'll have more people in higher age brackets recommending each other.
- kfcm 14y ago
  I'm the only employee of my business, but I do contract 1099s when needed. When I do, I try to get older professionals, simply because I get a more efficient bang for my buck. Far too many younger techs within a few years of entering the workforce, are too prone to the "not-invented-here" syndrome and re-invent too many wheels. Like we all were, right? Maybe I shouldn't have been an absolutist about not being able to get an interview after 40, but the difficulty of getting one is an order of magnitude or two higher. 45-50? Even more difficult in many locations. But my original comment's point still stands: things are not a bed of roses everywhere. Ageism exists in the field, and is probably more the norm than not. Will things get better in time? Maybe.
  - aaronblohowiak 14y ago
    ADEA protects older workers, not younger ones. >The ADEA permits employers to favor older workers based on age even when doing so adversely affects a younger worker who is 40 or older. http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/age.html http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/age.html
rayiner 14y ago
The ageism I saw is why I decided I didn't want to be in software development for the long term and left the field. I personally think the mentality is stupid and probably quite inefficient. In my field, law, they don't even let you into the courtroom until you're 5+ years in. Practicing law is an art and people with 20 years of experience are just better at it than people starting out. I never understood why so many people think software development is any different. Companies don't lay off their lawyers and hire fresh graduates when some new major new law goes into effect, so why do people lay off their software developers and hire fresh graduates when some major new technology becomes popular?
- nathan_long 14y ago
  I wouldn't argue for ageism, but I would say programming is different from law because technology changes much faster than law. There aren't giant paradigm shifts in law every 10 years. A new technology may in fact be much more productive to work with than an old one. Does someone with COBOL experience have an advantage or a disadvantage in learning Python vs someone who is just starting? Which is larger, the amount of useful knowledge they bring along, or the amount they have to discard? There are sage old programmers that I look up to. But there are also a lot who just burned out and quit, tired of the new technology treadmill. I'm not sure which I'll become.
  - rayiner 14y ago
    The volume of small, incremental, changes in law is higher. Let me put it this way. The Dodd-Frank regulations that have come out so far in the last two years is probably the same number of pages, printed 50 lines per page, as the C++ source for Oracle's Hotspot JVM. And it's only 30% done. And there is no ChangeLog. The pace of paradigm shifts is indeed much faster in technology, but I disagree there are major paradigm shifts in technology every 10 years. There are major developments within specific scientific domains like AI, image recognition, etc, but in software engineering itself there is little new under the sun. There is nothing in Javascript that wasn't done better in Smalltalk 30 years ago. CoffeeScript, C#, Lua, Ruby, etc? Derivative stuff that any Lisp-er plucked out of 1985 could pick up in a week or two.

by kfcm 14y ago

michaelochurch 14y ago

This is depressing but a realistic depiction of "how the other half programs". What are your thoughts on what puts people into that programming underclass (which definitely exists)?

larrys 14y ago
"thoughts on what puts people into that programming underclass" An example is the developer that just quoted me on setting up a server. He is charging me essentially his cost for the equipment and 3 hours at $50 per hour to set it up. I've seen this time and time again. Not able to price to what the market will bear. (He's in the midwest by the way and has a stunning resume and full time job working for a known company).
nandemo 14y ago
I don't know exactly what you mean by underclass (though I think I've seen a similar comment of yours), but one answer is what plinkplonk said in this thread: immigration restrictions, combined with the concentration of "elite" software companies in the US.

foohbarbaz 14y ago

Oh come on! I am in mid-forties and not just did not have any problems getting interviews, but also did not have any problems switching jobs a few months ago. Where I work we can't find enough decent devs for any money. H1-B is just a memory at that point. Mind you, this is not Silicon Valley, the market is quite a bit smaller (north Denver metro). Someone is either feeding you bad information or you are extrapolating and imagining things. Where I work, we have a very good team of developers and being mid 40-ies I am right in the middle of the pack. BTW, having been on H1-B 10 years ago, I can tell you that "40-50%" is not true either. So, what the heck are you talking about?

kfcm 14y ago
Apparently you didn't read my comment all that well. Re-read, and catch the "there are locations" where the article would be correct. You are falling into the same trap as the author of the original article. Just because Denver metro (or the Valley, DC, Minneapolis or a couple of other tech/government centers) are doing well, you're extrapolating that the rest of the nation is the same. I know there are places where the beer flows like wine. I'm here to tell you in many--if not most--places where I roam (primarily in the midwest), that is not the case. Ageism is a serious concern, along with companies doing what they can to lower "human capital" costs while still extracting as much work as possible. Infrastructure is somewhat immune to this, as well as smaller towns (25-50K and smaller, some distance away from larger metros) where they can't retain or recruit younger workers as easily. As for being fed bad information, you haven't seen the look on friends' faces who've remained in tech when they talk about their concerns and experiences. 10-20% paycuts 3-4 years ago which have not bounced back. Two different companies recently resetting position titles from "Senior Position" to "Position II" for those with 15-20 years experience. Watching any open positions be filled with H-1Bs, college interns or recent grads at intern salaries. Hearing about apparent tech Nirvanas in other metros, and being unable to leave because they'd uproot their family. The look on their faces may not be fear for their future, but it is a deep concern/worry.
- rhizome 14y ago
  Of course "there are locations," there are always locations. It's hard to be an oil derrick worker in the middle of Manhattan, and that's not because the cost of living there is so high.

parasitius 14y ago

Yeah come to Ohio ya'all. At mid-$20k salaries, the only reason to be a developer over other jobs is that you have higher social status. Every single friend I have who didn't go to college is making $35k+ in factories or whathaveyou -- and no $50k college debt loan burden either.

_yosefk 14y ago

I think ageism is "the" problem that you point out, because this is why people can't even get an interview after age 40, right? There are employers biased against older candidates, I guess - though not near me, not to the point where I'm able to get all the good candidates aged 40 and up for peanuts, and it's not like I'm not searching, goodness knows. But I think this is going to get better over time, as the masses of young programmers who entered the profession during and after the .com bubble age. In particular, you'll have more people in higher age brackets recommending each other.

kfcm 14y ago
I'm the only employee of my business, but I do contract 1099s when needed. When I do, I try to get older professionals, simply because I get a more efficient bang for my buck. Far too many younger techs within a few years of entering the workforce, are too prone to the "not-invented-here" syndrome and re-invent too many wheels. Like we all were, right? Maybe I shouldn't have been an absolutist about not being able to get an interview after 40, but the difficulty of getting one is an order of magnitude or two higher. 45-50? Even more difficult in many locations. But my original comment's point still stands: things are not a bed of roses everywhere. Ageism exists in the field, and is probably more the norm than not. Will things get better in time? Maybe.
- aaronblohowiak 14y ago
  ADEA protects older workers, not younger ones. >The ADEA permits employers to favor older workers based on age even when doing so adversely affects a younger worker who is 40 or older. http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/age.html http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/age.html

rayiner 14y ago

The ageism I saw is why I decided I didn't want to be in software development for the long term and left the field. I personally think the mentality is stupid and probably quite inefficient. In my field, law, they don't even let you into the courtroom until you're 5+ years in. Practicing law is an art and people with 20 years of experience are just better at it than people starting out. I never understood why so many people think software development is any different. Companies don't lay off their lawyers and hire fresh graduates when some new major new law goes into effect, so why do people lay off their software developers and hire fresh graduates when some major new technology becomes popular?

nathan_long 14y ago
I wouldn't argue for ageism, but I would say programming is different from law because technology changes much faster than law. There aren't giant paradigm shifts in law every 10 years. A new technology may in fact be much more productive to work with than an old one. Does someone with COBOL experience have an advantage or a disadvantage in learning Python vs someone who is just starting? Which is larger, the amount of useful knowledge they bring along, or the amount they have to discard? There are sage old programmers that I look up to. But there are also a lot who just burned out and quit, tired of the new technology treadmill. I'm not sure which I'll become.
- rayiner 14y ago
  The volume of small, incremental, changes in law is higher. Let me put it this way. The Dodd-Frank regulations that have come out so far in the last two years is probably the same number of pages, printed 50 lines per page, as the C++ source for Oracle's Hotspot JVM. And it's only 30% done. And there is no ChangeLog. The pace of paradigm shifts is indeed much faster in technology, but I disagree there are major paradigm shifts in technology every 10 years. There are major developments within specific scientific domains like AI, image recognition, etc, but in software engineering itself there is little new under the sun. There is nothing in Javascript that wasn't done better in Smalltalk 30 years ago. CoffeeScript, C#, Lua, Ruby, etc? Derivative stuff that any Lisp-er plucked out of 1985 could pick up in a week or two.