5 ms·

Condescending and disrespectful to whom? Everybody wholsale? This doesnt seem reasonable? Please elaborate.

by dugidugout 10mo ago

th0ma5 10mo ago
No, when did I say that?
- deleted 10mo ago
  [deleted]
- dugidugout 10mo ago
  It isn't clear what you said. You asserted a pattern of conduct on the user simonw: > I think constantly replying to everybody with some link which doesn't address their concerns Then claimed that conduct was: > condescending and disrespectful. I am asking you to elaborate to whom simonw is condescending and disrespecting. I don't see how it follows.
bravetraveler 10mo ago
Not sure if I'd use the same descriptions so pointedly, but I can see what they mean. It's perfectly fine to link for convenience, but it does feel a little disrespectful/SEO-y to not 'continue the conversation'. A summary in the very least, how exactly it pertains. Sell us. In a sense, link-dropping [alone] is saying: "go read this and establish my rhetorical/social position, I'm done here" Imagine meeting an author/producer/whatever you liked. You'd want to talk about their work, how they created it, the impact it had, and so on. Now imagine if they did that... or if they waved their hand vaguely at a catalog.
- tomrod 10mo ago
  Hell, I would consider myself graced that simonw, yes, THAT simonw, the LLM whisperer, took time out of his busy schedule to send me to a discussion I might have expressed interest in.
  - bravetraveler 10mo ago
    > send me to a discussion I might have expressed interest in No, no, remember? Points to the blog you were already reading! Working diligently to build a brand: podcast, paid newsletter, the works.
    - tomrod 10mo ago
      I wasn't speaking to this interaction, and my point is genuine. Simonw has done fantastic work in the LLM space
      - bravetraveler 10mo ago
        ... and my point remains: he's fine. Could be better. If he does grace us, he can choose to bait the hook more effectively. Or not. The stakes are silly-low. This interaction is, effectively, a link dropped with an announcement of an announcement. For what has already occurred. Over-fitting, training? You don't say. If I wanted to be more of an ass, I'd look to argue about hype generation. But I don't, I appreciate any honest effort, which I believe for Simon.
- simonw 10mo ago
  I've genuinely been answering the question "what if the labs are training on your pelican benchmark" 3-4 times a week for several months at this point. I wrote that piece precisely so I didn't have to copy and paste the same arguments into dozens of different conversations.
  - bravetraveler 10mo ago
    Oh, no. Does this policing job pay well? /s Seriously: less is more, trust the process, any number of platitudes work here. Who are you defending against? Readers, right? You wrote your thing, defended it with more of the thing. It'll permeate. Or it won't. Does it matter? You could be done, nothing is making you defend this (sorry) asinine benchmark across the internet. Not trying to (m|y)uck your yum, or whatever. Remember, I did say linking for convenience is fine. We're belaboring the worst reading in comments. Inconsequential, unnecessary heartburn. Link the blog posts together and call it good enough.
    - simonw 10mo ago
      You don't have to convince me the pelican riding a bicycle SVG benchmark is asinine. That's kind of the point!
      - bravetraveler 10mo ago
        Having read the followup post being linked, I'm even more confused. Commenting or, really, anything seems even less worthwhile. That's my point. You bring the benchmark and anticipated their... cheesing, with a promise to catch them on it. Cool announcement of an announcement. Just do that [or don't]. In a hippy sense, this is no longer yours. It's out there. Like everything else anyone wrote. Let the LLM people train on your test. Catch them as claimed. Publish again. Huzzah, industry without overtime in the comments. It makes sense/cents to position yourself this way :) Obviously they're going to train on anything they can get. They did. Mouse, meet cat. Some of us in the house would love it if y'all would keep it down! This is 90s rap beef all over again
    - Barbing 10mo ago
- charcircuit 10mo ago
  If you want a summary you can have your ai assistant summarize the link.
  - bravetraveler 10mo ago
    Woooooosh, please see if an LLM can help you. I'm not getting paid for this
- renewiltord 10mo ago
  It is SEO-y and I’m sure no small impulse is to drive traffic to his website since he’s primarily an AI influencer. However, there are always people who are “native” to a platform and field. Pieter Levels is native to Twitter and the nomad community. Swyx is native to Twitter/HN and the devtools community. And simonw is native to at least HN and the LLM-interest community. And various streamers and onlyfans creators do the same with theirs. Through some degree of releasing things that whatever that community values they build a relationship that allows them greater freedom in participating there. It does create a positive feedback cycle for them (and hopefully the community) that most of them will try to parlay into something else: Levels and the OnlyFans creators are probably best at this monetization of reputation but each of them is doing this. One success step for simonw would be “Creator of Pelican LLM benchmark”. Once you’ve breached some stable point in the community the norms are somewhat relaxed. But it’s not easy to do that. You have to produce some extraordinary volume of things that people value. I think, tbh, tptacek here could most effectively monetize if he decided to. But he doesn’t appear to want to so he’s just a participant not an influencer so to speak. Whereas someone like Levels or simonw is both. It’s just creator economy stuff. Meta discussions like this always pop up. But ultimately simonw is past the threshold of trust. There are people who say “wtf? Why is levels making $50k/mo on a stupid vibe-coded flying game?” It ain’t the game. It’s the following before the game. The resource is the audience.
  - bravetraveler 10mo ago
    Thanks for posting, I agree. I regret this being taken so pointedly at Simon, just a player in the game. The best guy spinning the sign puts some effort in, or more crass, the best strippers make you believe.
  - dugidugout 10mo ago
    Well put and thank you for adding much depth here!
  - tptacek 10mo ago
    Wait how do I monetize? Am I leaving money on the table?

Condescending and disrespectful to whom? Everybody wholsale? This doesnt seem reasonable? Please elaborate.

th0ma5 10mo ago

No, when did I say that?

deleted 10mo ago
[deleted]
dugidugout 10mo ago
It isn't clear what you said. You asserted a pattern of conduct on the user simonw: > I think constantly replying to everybody with some link which doesn't address their concerns Then claimed that conduct was: > condescending and disrespectful. I am asking you to elaborate to whom simonw is condescending and disrespecting. I don't see how it follows.

bravetraveler 10mo ago

Not sure if I'd use the same descriptions so pointedly, but I can see what they mean. It's perfectly fine to link for convenience, but it does feel a little disrespectful/SEO-y to not 'continue the conversation'. A summary in the very least, how exactly it pertains. Sell us. In a sense, link-dropping [alone] is saying: "go read this and establish my rhetorical/social position, I'm done here" Imagine meeting an author/producer/whatever you liked. You'd want to talk about their work, how they created it, the impact it had, and so on. Now imagine if they did that... or if they waved their hand vaguely at a catalog.

tomrod 10mo ago
Hell, I would consider myself graced that simonw, yes, THAT simonw, the LLM whisperer, took time out of his busy schedule to send me to a discussion I might have expressed interest in.
- bravetraveler 10mo ago
  > send me to a discussion I might have expressed interest in No, no, remember? Points to the blog you were already reading! Working diligently to build a brand: podcast, paid newsletter, the works.
  - tomrod 10mo ago
    I wasn't speaking to this interaction, and my point is genuine. Simonw has done fantastic work in the LLM space
    - bravetraveler 10mo ago
      ... and my point remains: he's fine. Could be better. If he does grace us, he can choose to bait the hook more effectively. Or not. The stakes are silly-low. This interaction is, effectively, a link dropped with an announcement of an announcement. For what has already occurred. Over-fitting, training? You don't say. If I wanted to be more of an ass, I'd look to argue about hype generation. But I don't, I appreciate any honest effort, which I believe for Simon.
simonw 10mo ago
I've genuinely been answering the question "what if the labs are training on your pelican benchmark" 3-4 times a week for several months at this point. I wrote that piece precisely so I didn't have to copy and paste the same arguments into dozens of different conversations.
- bravetraveler 10mo ago
  Oh, no. Does this policing job pay well? /s Seriously: less is more, trust the process, any number of platitudes work here. Who are you defending against? Readers, right? You wrote your thing, defended it with more of the thing. It'll permeate. Or it won't. Does it matter? You could be done, nothing is making you defend this (sorry) asinine benchmark across the internet. Not trying to (m|y)uck your yum, or whatever. Remember, I did say linking for convenience is fine. We're belaboring the worst reading in comments. Inconsequential, unnecessary heartburn. Link the blog posts together and call it good enough.
  - simonw 10mo ago
    You don't have to convince me the pelican riding a bicycle SVG benchmark is asinine. That's kind of the point!
    - bravetraveler 10mo ago
      Having read the followup post being linked, I'm even more confused. Commenting or, really, anything seems even less worthwhile. That's my point. You bring the benchmark and anticipated their... cheesing, with a promise to catch them on it. Cool announcement of an announcement. Just do that [or don't]. In a hippy sense, this is no longer yours. It's out there. Like everything else anyone wrote. Let the LLM people train on your test. Catch them as claimed. Publish again. Huzzah, industry without overtime in the comments. It makes sense/cents to position yourself this way :) Obviously they're going to train on anything they can get. They did. Mouse, meet cat. Some of us in the house would love it if y'all would keep it down! This is 90s rap beef all over again
  - Barbing 10mo ago
charcircuit 10mo ago
If you want a summary you can have your ai assistant summarize the link.
- bravetraveler 10mo ago
  Woooooosh, please see if an LLM can help you. I'm not getting paid for this
renewiltord 10mo ago
It is SEO-y and I’m sure no small impulse is to drive traffic to his website since he’s primarily an AI influencer. However, there are always people who are “native” to a platform and field. Pieter Levels is native to Twitter and the nomad community. Swyx is native to Twitter/HN and the devtools community. And simonw is native to at least HN and the LLM-interest community. And various streamers and onlyfans creators do the same with theirs. Through some degree of releasing things that whatever that community values they build a relationship that allows them greater freedom in participating there. It does create a positive feedback cycle for them (and hopefully the community) that most of them will try to parlay into something else: Levels and the OnlyFans creators are probably best at this monetization of reputation but each of them is doing this. One success step for simonw would be “Creator of Pelican LLM benchmark”. Once you’ve breached some stable point in the community the norms are somewhat relaxed. But it’s not easy to do that. You have to produce some extraordinary volume of things that people value. I think, tbh, tptacek here could most effectively monetize if he decided to. But he doesn’t appear to want to so he’s just a participant not an influencer so to speak. Whereas someone like Levels or simonw is both. It’s just creator economy stuff. Meta discussions like this always pop up. But ultimately simonw is past the threshold of trust. There are people who say “wtf? Why is levels making $50k/mo on a stupid vibe-coded flying game?” It ain’t the game. It’s the following before the game. The resource is the audience.
- bravetraveler 10mo ago
  Thanks for posting, I agree. I regret this being taken so pointedly at Simon, just a player in the game. The best guy spinning the sign puts some effort in, or more crass, the best strippers make you believe.
- dugidugout 10mo ago
  Well put and thank you for adding much depth here!
- tptacek 10mo ago
  Wait how do I monetize? Am I leaving money on the table?