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It is interesting that the author is an Arch Linux developer. My sole experience in the #python channel on freenode [1] was to be badly flamed once the room dis

by guns 14y ago

It is interesting that the author is an Arch Linux developer. My sole experience in the #python channel on freenode [1] was to be badly flamed once the room discovered I was an Arch user. Apparently there is considerable annoyance at Arch's decision to install Python 3 as /usr/bin/python, against the recommendations of the Python community. While I understand that this decision may have increased calls for help from Arch users in #python, Arch is strictly rolling release, and Python 3 has been out for 4 years now. Given this last fact, the vitriol I encountered was quite surprising. [1]: Asking simply for a method to obtain compile-time information about python from python. I got the answer from a sympathetic person in the channel. Thanks felipe

fmoralesc 14y ago
> Apparently there is considerable annoyance at Arch's decision to install Python 3 as /usr/bin/python, against the recommendations of the Python community. Really? Isn't Arch complaint with PEP 394 [1], which deals with that issue? The problems are mostly with people assuming `python` means `python2`, and distros/installs not providing the `python2` command. [1]: http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0394/ http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0394/
- Goopplesoft 14y ago
  Quote your link: >python should refer to the same target as python2 but may refer to python3 on some bleeding edge distributions Is Arch considered bleeding edge?
  - antidoh 14y ago
    I see Arch as a kindler, gentler gentoo. So maybe not bleeding edge, but definitely an edge. You should only be there if you know why you want to be there.
    - stefantalpalaru 14y ago
      Do you have USE flags in the (mainly) binary distro you compare to Gentoo?
      - antidoh 14y ago
        It's been years since I tried gentoo (and eventually decided it wasn't for me), so I had to look up USE flags. Great idea. I've never run Arch, my impressions are from what I've read. Coincidentally it was the python3 thing that helped me decide not to use Arch. Since I don't run arch (or gentoo) I don't speak with any authority. Searching around, I saw something about yaourt, which may or may not serve the same intention for the type of distro that arch is. https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Yaourt https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Yaourt Dunno.
      - fmoralesc 14y ago
        Sort of. The package building system is very simple and arch provides facilities for building everything from scratch if you want to.[1] [1]: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch_Build_System https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch_Build_System
        stefantalpalaru 14y ago
        USE flags on Gentoo are a way to expose configuration options to the user, not just allowing packages to be built from source. More details: http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?part=2&chap=2 http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?part=...
        fmoralesc 14y ago
        That's why I said "sort of". Arch (as far as I know) doesn't provide a global way to do what USE flags do in gentoo, but the same end can be acomplished by tweaking the packages . There are also ways to apply those changes automatically, but they are not the same thing either.[1] [1]: http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=10314 http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=10314
      - 14y ago
  - alexchamberlain 14y ago
    It's not bleeding edge, just up to date. There are testing and stable repositories, but the stable packages are supposed to provide stable software rather than a stable system as a whole. You, as the user, are responsible for the stable system.
- guns 14y ago
  > The problems are mostly with people assuming `python` means `python2`, and distros/installs not providing the `python2` command Yes, Arch follows the recommendations of the link you provided. I was compiling a naïve program that assumed /usr/bin/python to be Python, so I was trying to hack autoconf (or cmake?) by overriding the hard-coded path with the python2 libdir. I thought it would be nice to ask python2 itself for its library path so I asked #python. The channel moderator in turn appended "NO ARCH" to the channel banner once I mentioned Arch Linux.
  - fmoralesc 14y ago
    Not nice at all, to say the least.
evmar 14y ago
I think the blame ultimately lies on the Python side, for not giving clear guidance that switching /usr/bin/python is a bad idea. (But Arch definitely deserves plenty of blame for making a bad decision where the Python guidelines allowed them to choose.) http://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-general/2011-December/023344.html http://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-general/2011-Dec...
stefantalpalaru 14y ago
Arch should just make /usr/bin/python point to PyPy from now on. Screw the C modules that can't keep up with the E.U. and crowd funded future, right? As long as your pure python code is repeated long enough to be traced and JITed, you'll be almost OK.
ak217 14y ago
Freenode channels are not a representative sample of any community. While people are often incredibly helpful, the channels are unmoderated (or moderated poorly, as you describe further down) and easily hijacked by people who have nothing better to do than give out poor, abrasive, opinionated advice. I've lost count of times when I came into a channel and asked a specific technical question, only to be flamed for a completely tangential reason, or receive 100% certain, 100% incorrect advice.
- JulianWasTaken 14y ago
  What you say is not terribly far from the truth in general, and since it appears you meant it as such (as a general statement) I'll take it as if you did, but #python is not unmoderated by any means, nor is it moderated poorly on the whole in my opinion, and this is not a reflection of hijacking of any sort. I personally agree with the sentiment, though if I were one of the ones that responded to the OP I hope I didn't do so abrasively.
pi18n 14y ago
I think it's pretty easy to get flamed on IRC; pick a channel and then pick an opinion that differs from the majority. I've been told I was stupid and irrational for preferring the wrong code editor before. It's admittedly infuriating when supposed adults act and argue like children, but I guess it's not a big deal in the long run.

by guns 14y ago

fmoralesc 14y ago

> Apparently there is considerable annoyance at Arch's decision to install Python 3 as /usr/bin/python, against the recommendations of the Python community. Really? Isn't Arch complaint with PEP 394 [1], which deals with that issue? The problems are mostly with people assuming `python` means `python2`, and distros/installs not providing the `python2` command. [1]: http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0394/ http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0394/

Goopplesoft 14y ago
Quote your link: >python should refer to the same target as python2 but may refer to python3 on some bleeding edge distributions Is Arch considered bleeding edge?
- antidoh 14y ago
  I see Arch as a kindler, gentler gentoo. So maybe not bleeding edge, but definitely an edge. You should only be there if you know why you want to be there.
  - stefantalpalaru 14y ago
    Do you have USE flags in the (mainly) binary distro you compare to Gentoo?
    - antidoh 14y ago
      It's been years since I tried gentoo (and eventually decided it wasn't for me), so I had to look up USE flags. Great idea. I've never run Arch, my impressions are from what I've read. Coincidentally it was the python3 thing that helped me decide not to use Arch. Since I don't run arch (or gentoo) I don't speak with any authority. Searching around, I saw something about yaourt, which may or may not serve the same intention for the type of distro that arch is. https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Yaourt https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Yaourt Dunno.
    - fmoralesc 14y ago
      Sort of. The package building system is very simple and arch provides facilities for building everything from scratch if you want to.[1] [1]: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch_Build_System https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch_Build_System
      - stefantalpalaru 14y ago
        USE flags on Gentoo are a way to expose configuration options to the user, not just allowing packages to be built from source. More details: http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?part=2&chap=2 http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?part=...
        fmoralesc 14y ago
        That's why I said "sort of". Arch (as far as I know) doesn't provide a global way to do what USE flags do in gentoo, but the same end can be acomplished by tweaking the packages . There are also ways to apply those changes automatically, but they are not the same thing either.[1] [1]: http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=10314 http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=10314
    - 14y ago
- alexchamberlain 14y ago
  It's not bleeding edge, just up to date. There are testing and stable repositories, but the stable packages are supposed to provide stable software rather than a stable system as a whole. You, as the user, are responsible for the stable system.
guns 14y ago
> The problems are mostly with people assuming `python` means `python2`, and distros/installs not providing the `python2` command Yes, Arch follows the recommendations of the link you provided. I was compiling a naïve program that assumed /usr/bin/python to be Python, so I was trying to hack autoconf (or cmake?) by overriding the hard-coded path with the python2 libdir. I thought it would be nice to ask python2 itself for its library path so I asked #python. The channel moderator in turn appended "NO ARCH" to the channel banner once I mentioned Arch Linux.
- fmoralesc 14y ago
  Not nice at all, to say the least.

evmar 14y ago

I think the blame ultimately lies on the Python side, for not giving clear guidance that switching /usr/bin/python is a bad idea. (But Arch definitely deserves plenty of blame for making a bad decision where the Python guidelines allowed them to choose.) http://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-general/2011-December/023344.html http://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-general/2011-Dec...

stefantalpalaru 14y ago

Arch should just make /usr/bin/python point to PyPy from now on. Screw the C modules that can't keep up with the E.U. and crowd funded future, right? As long as your pure python code is repeated long enough to be traced and JITed, you'll be almost OK.

ak217 14y ago

Freenode channels are not a representative sample of any community. While people are often incredibly helpful, the channels are unmoderated (or moderated poorly, as you describe further down) and easily hijacked by people who have nothing better to do than give out poor, abrasive, opinionated advice. I've lost count of times when I came into a channel and asked a specific technical question, only to be flamed for a completely tangential reason, or receive 100% certain, 100% incorrect advice.

JulianWasTaken 14y ago
What you say is not terribly far from the truth in general, and since it appears you meant it as such (as a general statement) I'll take it as if you did, but #python is not unmoderated by any means, nor is it moderated poorly on the whole in my opinion, and this is not a reflection of hijacking of any sort. I personally agree with the sentiment, though if I were one of the ones that responded to the OP I hope I didn't do so abrasively.

pi18n 14y ago

I think it's pretty easy to get flamed on IRC; pick a channel and then pick an opinion that differs from the majority. I've been told I was stupid and irrational for preferring the wrong code editor before. It's admittedly infuriating when supposed adults act and argue like children, but I guess it's not a big deal in the long run.