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I just watched a video from Dave Ramsey title "What the Government Should Do to Fix the Housing Problem" He specifically calls out Institutional Investors and F

by vondur 10mo ago

I just watched a video from Dave Ramsey title "What the Government Should Do to Fix the Housing Problem" He specifically calls out Institutional Investors and Foreign Corporations that have been purchasing single family housing and converting them into rental properties. I think he makes some good point in his video: https://youtu.be/_CrgniwSLLM https://youtu.be/_CrgniwSLLM

jeffbee 10mo ago
Why do you think that renters don't deserve to live in single-family homes?
- MetaWhirledPeas 10mo ago
  Not at all what the GP said. They aren't saying landlords are the problem, they are saying Institutional Investors and Foreign Corporations being landlords are the problem.
  - jeffbee 10mo ago
    There is absolutely nothing wrong with institutional investors buying tract homes and renting them out. Nothing! It brings the benefits of living in such homes to people who otherwise would be excluded from them by the financial credit system.
    - gnatman 10mo ago
      The article linked in the OP, and many posters in this thread, present arguments to the contrary. The main one seems to be that although institutional investors are happy to let people “benefit” from renting their homes, they are precluding many from ever owning those homes themselves.
      - jeffbee 10mo ago
        I understand the arguments, and I understand that they are morally vacuous arguments. It is simply an advancement of the interests of the bourgeoisie. They are annoyed that renters are effectively able to influence the market, even if by the second degree through large-scale renting. They believe that having scraped together a quarter million dollars for the down payment makes them a special class of people. It is a stupid position to defend.
        AnthonyMouse 10mo ago
        > It is a stupid position to defend. Doubly so when they themselves lobby for policies that keep housing prices high, which is the primary thing preventing more people from owning rather than renting.
    - MetaWhirledPeas 10mo ago
      Well really I was just trying to explain the GP's post, not adopt their views, but I think I can play devil's advocate here for the sake of discussion. The problem with institutional investors is that in making it big business you drive up home prices which in turn drives up the rental prices. Since they can have a wide portfolio of homes, they are less likely to lower rent prices when demand drops, because they can afford to take the short term hit if it they think the market is going to pick back up again. AND they can play games like grabbing all available homes in an area in order to artificially inflate prices.
      - jeffbee 10mo ago
        I see that you did your best, but it should be obvious that the people who want to buy homes also have a massive financial machine on their side, and that it also drives up prices. If the insured 30-year mortgage did not exist, homes would be a lot cheaper.
  - tptacek 10mo ago
    Wait, you're not answering his question. "Institutional investors" rent out houses at a scale individual owners can't, and have more resources to maintain those properties and respond to renter complaints. Why isn't a carefully-regulated market of institutional single-family-home lenders a good thing?
    - jfindper 10mo ago
      >Why isn't a carefully-regulated market of institutional single-family-home lenders a good thing? Is there a good example of this? Every corporation I've rented from have all fought me tooth and nail when I needed maintenance and did basically everything possible to ignore any and all complaints (because it costs them money, obviously). I have had to have a lawyer send a letter on my behalf more than once. But that's just my experience, which has jaded me. Perhaps you can show me a non-hypothetical example of the other side and open my eyes up a bit? Any countries, laws, specific corporations which demonstrate a carefully-regulated market of institutional single-family-home lenders I should look at?
      - tptacek 10mo ago
        It has not been my experience that individual owner landlords have been better than institutional owners! Anyways, I was just calling out that your logic didn't appear to hold. The right response to the comment that roots this subthread is "institutional landlords are not generally a thing". Again: the median number of properties a California corporate landlord lets out is 1.
        jfindper 10mo ago
        >your logic I didn't write any other comment here :) But, anyways: >It has not been my experience that individual owner landlords have been better than institutional owners! My experience has been different than yours, in that case!
        tptacek 10mo ago
        Must be. In particular: the only landlord I ever got a security deposit back from automatically was a corporate landlord. More broadly: if your concern is that the landlord isn't going to fix the furnace or whatever, you can address that without distorting the market just by creating causes of action, penalties, and fix-and-deduct ordinances to shift incentives. Banning corporate landlords reduces the supply of housing (larger institutional investors are the primary builders of dense multifamily), and privileges individual owner/landlords who do not have a better track record or better incentives or better resources.
HarryHirsch 10mo ago
Why would someone listen to Dave Ramsey of all people? He is neither an economist, nor a Christian, he has nothing to contribute to the subject! His shtick is real estate investment, of course he wants to see Joe Public buy a starter home. The trouble is: real estate as a government-guaranteed investment vehicle is what brought us the housing affordability crisis.
- pavel_lishin 10mo ago
  > nor a Christian ... what bearing does that have on anything?
  - c-linkage 10mo ago
    Only the right kind of people can hear that dog whistle.
  - carlosjobim 10mo ago
    Dave Ramsey, commonly described as "Christian finance guru", who had a show on the "Christian Broadcasting Network".
    - HarryHirsch 10mo ago
      ... pitching his books and preaching the Prosperity Gospel, which is antithetical to mainstream Christianity and not good financial advice.
      - carlosjobim 10mo ago
        Yes, just explaining to the other commenter who didn't understand the relevance of Christianity in your previous comment.
- vondur 10mo ago
  His "schtick" is having people pay down and reduce debt. What's noteworthy on this video is that he's calling for the government to fix the problem. He's normally anti-government involvement in business. This should speak to the severity of the problem when someone like him is calling for the government to step in a fix it.
ProllyInfamous 10mo ago
Thanks for sharing the DR link — hadn't listened to him in many years, but he definitely helped me start my debt-free journey (although his long-term investment opinions aren't aligned with my own planning / re$ult$). I am not religious I just started listening. >"If you're 25 or 26 years old right now YOU ARE GETTING SCREWED RIGHT NOW (by large banks) like has never happened ever before... record debt debt debt" —Dave Ramsey [0] I am definitely doing "better than I deserve." [0] He actually says this at 6m in above-comment's link
tptacek 10mo ago
We just had a research report on HN a few weeks ago showing that the median number of properties "corporations" in California rented out is 1.

by vondur 10mo ago

jeffbee 10mo ago

Why do you think that renters don't deserve to live in single-family homes?

MetaWhirledPeas 10mo ago
Not at all what the GP said. They aren't saying landlords are the problem, they are saying Institutional Investors and Foreign Corporations being landlords are the problem.
- jeffbee 10mo ago
  There is absolutely nothing wrong with institutional investors buying tract homes and renting them out. Nothing! It brings the benefits of living in such homes to people who otherwise would be excluded from them by the financial credit system.
  - gnatman 10mo ago
    The article linked in the OP, and many posters in this thread, present arguments to the contrary. The main one seems to be that although institutional investors are happy to let people “benefit” from renting their homes, they are precluding many from ever owning those homes themselves.
    - jeffbee 10mo ago
      I understand the arguments, and I understand that they are morally vacuous arguments. It is simply an advancement of the interests of the bourgeoisie. They are annoyed that renters are effectively able to influence the market, even if by the second degree through large-scale renting. They believe that having scraped together a quarter million dollars for the down payment makes them a special class of people. It is a stupid position to defend.
      - AnthonyMouse 10mo ago
        > It is a stupid position to defend. Doubly so when they themselves lobby for policies that keep housing prices high, which is the primary thing preventing more people from owning rather than renting.
  - MetaWhirledPeas 10mo ago
    Well really I was just trying to explain the GP's post, not adopt their views, but I think I can play devil's advocate here for the sake of discussion. The problem with institutional investors is that in making it big business you drive up home prices which in turn drives up the rental prices. Since they can have a wide portfolio of homes, they are less likely to lower rent prices when demand drops, because they can afford to take the short term hit if it they think the market is going to pick back up again. AND they can play games like grabbing all available homes in an area in order to artificially inflate prices.
    - jeffbee 10mo ago
      I see that you did your best, but it should be obvious that the people who want to buy homes also have a massive financial machine on their side, and that it also drives up prices. If the insured 30-year mortgage did not exist, homes would be a lot cheaper.
- tptacek 10mo ago
  Wait, you're not answering his question. "Institutional investors" rent out houses at a scale individual owners can't, and have more resources to maintain those properties and respond to renter complaints. Why isn't a carefully-regulated market of institutional single-family-home lenders a good thing?
  - jfindper 10mo ago
    >Why isn't a carefully-regulated market of institutional single-family-home lenders a good thing? Is there a good example of this? Every corporation I've rented from have all fought me tooth and nail when I needed maintenance and did basically everything possible to ignore any and all complaints (because it costs them money, obviously). I have had to have a lawyer send a letter on my behalf more than once. But that's just my experience, which has jaded me. Perhaps you can show me a non-hypothetical example of the other side and open my eyes up a bit? Any countries, laws, specific corporations which demonstrate a carefully-regulated market of institutional single-family-home lenders I should look at?
    - tptacek 10mo ago
      It has not been my experience that individual owner landlords have been better than institutional owners! Anyways, I was just calling out that your logic didn't appear to hold. The right response to the comment that roots this subthread is "institutional landlords are not generally a thing". Again: the median number of properties a California corporate landlord lets out is 1.
      - jfindper 10mo ago
        >your logic I didn't write any other comment here :) But, anyways: >It has not been my experience that individual owner landlords have been better than institutional owners! My experience has been different than yours, in that case!
        tptacek 10mo ago
        Must be. In particular: the only landlord I ever got a security deposit back from automatically was a corporate landlord. More broadly: if your concern is that the landlord isn't going to fix the furnace or whatever, you can address that without distorting the market just by creating causes of action, penalties, and fix-and-deduct ordinances to shift incentives. Banning corporate landlords reduces the supply of housing (larger institutional investors are the primary builders of dense multifamily), and privileges individual owner/landlords who do not have a better track record or better incentives or better resources.

HarryHirsch 10mo ago

Why would someone listen to Dave Ramsey of all people? He is neither an economist, nor a Christian, he has nothing to contribute to the subject! His shtick is real estate investment, of course he wants to see Joe Public buy a starter home. The trouble is: real estate as a government-guaranteed investment vehicle is what brought us the housing affordability crisis.

pavel_lishin 10mo ago
> nor a Christian ... what bearing does that have on anything?
- c-linkage 10mo ago
  Only the right kind of people can hear that dog whistle.
- carlosjobim 10mo ago
  Dave Ramsey, commonly described as "Christian finance guru", who had a show on the "Christian Broadcasting Network".
  - HarryHirsch 10mo ago
    ... pitching his books and preaching the Prosperity Gospel, which is antithetical to mainstream Christianity and not good financial advice.
    - carlosjobim 10mo ago
      Yes, just explaining to the other commenter who didn't understand the relevance of Christianity in your previous comment.
vondur 10mo ago
His "schtick" is having people pay down and reduce debt. What's noteworthy on this video is that he's calling for the government to fix the problem. He's normally anti-government involvement in business. This should speak to the severity of the problem when someone like him is calling for the government to step in a fix it.

ProllyInfamous 10mo ago

Thanks for sharing the DR link — hadn't listened to him in many years, but he definitely helped me start my debt-free journey (although his long-term investment opinions aren't aligned with my own planning / re$ult$). I am not religious I just started listening. >"If you're 25 or 26 years old right now YOU ARE GETTING SCREWED RIGHT NOW (by large banks) like has never happened ever before... record debt debt debt" —Dave Ramsey [0] I am definitely doing "better than I deserve." [0] He actually says this at 6m in above-comment's link

tptacek 10mo ago

We just had a research report on HN a few weeks ago showing that the median number of properties "corporations" in California rented out is 1.