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That would require making positive, pragmatic suggestions that could improve the lives of the average person, rather than moralizing and kowtowing to the specia

That would require making positive, pragmatic suggestions that could improve the lives of the average person, rather than moralizing and kowtowing to the special interest groups and wealthy donors who have captured the party. Good luck with that. As it is we now have two parties obsessed with “regulating” the morality of citizens while bleeding them out financially.

estearum 11mo ago
No, it would require overcoming a shameless demagogue and enablers who have no problem blatantly lying about everything to everyone. Democracy has been known since its invention to be extremely vulnerable to such actors. It's vulnerable to it because it's nearly impossible to counter. Your critique is valid to some degree, but Trump won simply because he had the shamelessness to lie over and over and over again that he'd bring prices down. That's it. No "positive, pragmatic suggestions" are electorally stronger than simple untruths stated with confidence ad infinitum.
- iamnothere 11mo ago
  Good luck with that. This was the message of the consultant class in 2016 and 2024 and it’s why Dems lost both of those elections. Biden, for all his flaws, actually did attempt to articulate and focus on a positive message and actively reached out to struggling workers. And he won.
  - estearum 11mo ago
    The message of the consultant class is that demagogues can win by just lying to people? Which consultants said that? Biden won because he came hot on the heels of Trump's complete inability to actually govern. Which specific pragmatic, positive visions did Biden put forth that are so distinct from Harris's that they won in one case and lost in another?
    - iamnothere 11mo ago
      No, the message was that winning was about “overcoming a shameless demagogue and enablers who have no problem blatantly lying about everything to everyone,” plus shallow pandering to diversity, rather than delivering tangible benefits to Americans. In both 2016 and 2024 the Dem message to voters was that everything was fine, no radical economic change was needed, vote against orange man and all would be well. This was a losing position against a populist. Biden called on his long record of support for labor and proposed investing in American manufacturing, which was a winner in swing states especially since the economy was hurting due to the pandemic.
      - estearum 11mo ago
        I didn't say that should be the message. I said that there's no "pragmatic, positive message" that overcomes simply lying and having an entire media and political apparatus that supports it. Biden's primary advantage was running against a guy who was demonstrably a complete shit show as an actual incumbent. That was memory-holed by the same shameless lying (e.g. ask Republicans who they think "locked people down" during COVID). Biden (and Harris) then had a similar disadvantage going into 2024. It's extremely, extremely silly to act like voters were looking for pragmatic messages lol. Simply no evidence for that. They were primarily looking to get rid of the incumbent, as was the trend across all democracies during a period of extreme inflation.
        iamnothere 11mo ago
        That’s a common refrain, especially among the media (ironically, as they are blaming themselves) and the professional-managerial class, who seem to have a blind spot for labor needs. Voters facing hardship have agency and vote for who they believe is aligned with their needs. In 2020 Biden’s union support was key to his victory in the rust belt states, which carried him to victory. Harris didn’t have the same background and didn’t make a serious effort to reach those people, and lost a percentage of union votes at a time when the number of union voters actually increased. So she lost. But it’s true that inflation didn’t help. One reason that incumbents are doing so poorly is that they promise nothing, and deliver it. Nations are in decline across the West, and all that candidates are allowed to offer is more of the same neoliberal pablum. Anyone who attempts to offer something different faces a coordinated attack from the media and incumbent political class, and the only ones seemingly able to break through the resistance are dishonest right-populists. The left has to come up with a solution other than dismantling (excuse me, “fortifying”) democracy, which appears to be the EU solution.

estearum 11mo ago

No, it would require overcoming a shameless demagogue and enablers who have no problem blatantly lying about everything to everyone. Democracy has been known since its invention to be extremely vulnerable to such actors. It's vulnerable to it because it's nearly impossible to counter. Your critique is valid to some degree, but Trump won simply because he had the shamelessness to lie over and over and over again that he'd bring prices down. That's it. No "positive, pragmatic suggestions" are electorally stronger than simple untruths stated with confidence ad infinitum.

iamnothere 11mo ago
Good luck with that. This was the message of the consultant class in 2016 and 2024 and it’s why Dems lost both of those elections. Biden, for all his flaws, actually did attempt to articulate and focus on a positive message and actively reached out to struggling workers. And he won.
- estearum 11mo ago
  The message of the consultant class is that demagogues can win by just lying to people? Which consultants said that? Biden won because he came hot on the heels of Trump's complete inability to actually govern. Which specific pragmatic, positive visions did Biden put forth that are so distinct from Harris's that they won in one case and lost in another?
  - iamnothere 11mo ago
    No, the message was that winning was about “overcoming a shameless demagogue and enablers who have no problem blatantly lying about everything to everyone,” plus shallow pandering to diversity, rather than delivering tangible benefits to Americans. In both 2016 and 2024 the Dem message to voters was that everything was fine, no radical economic change was needed, vote against orange man and all would be well. This was a losing position against a populist. Biden called on his long record of support for labor and proposed investing in American manufacturing, which was a winner in swing states especially since the economy was hurting due to the pandemic.
    - estearum 11mo ago
      I didn't say that should be the message. I said that there's no "pragmatic, positive message" that overcomes simply lying and having an entire media and political apparatus that supports it. Biden's primary advantage was running against a guy who was demonstrably a complete shit show as an actual incumbent. That was memory-holed by the same shameless lying (e.g. ask Republicans who they think "locked people down" during COVID). Biden (and Harris) then had a similar disadvantage going into 2024. It's extremely, extremely silly to act like voters were looking for pragmatic messages lol. Simply no evidence for that. They were primarily looking to get rid of the incumbent, as was the trend across all democracies during a period of extreme inflation.
      - iamnothere 11mo ago
        That’s a common refrain, especially among the media (ironically, as they are blaming themselves) and the professional-managerial class, who seem to have a blind spot for labor needs. Voters facing hardship have agency and vote for who they believe is aligned with their needs. In 2020 Biden’s union support was key to his victory in the rust belt states, which carried him to victory. Harris didn’t have the same background and didn’t make a serious effort to reach those people, and lost a percentage of union votes at a time when the number of union voters actually increased. So she lost. But it’s true that inflation didn’t help. One reason that incumbents are doing so poorly is that they promise nothing, and deliver it. Nations are in decline across the West, and all that candidates are allowed to offer is more of the same neoliberal pablum. Anyone who attempts to offer something different faces a coordinated attack from the media and incumbent political class, and the only ones seemingly able to break through the resistance are dishonest right-populists. The left has to come up with a solution other than dismantling (excuse me, “fortifying”) democracy, which appears to be the EU solution.