8 ms·

JetBrains cancels Fleet

114 points by guitcastro 10mo ago

guitcastro 10mo ago
Fleet started as our attempt to explore a new generation of JetBrains IDEs, developed in parallel with those based on the IntelliJ Platform. Over time, we learned that having two general-purpose IDE families created confusion and diluted our focus. Rebuilding the full capabilities of IntelliJ-based IDEs inside Fleet did not create enough value, and positioning Fleet as yet another editor did not justify maintaining two overlapping product lines.
- cpburns2009 10mo ago
  Dropping Fleet is a good move. Just please for the love of God focus on your IDEs. Stop getting distracted with AI slop.
  - pixl97 10mo ago
    >Stop getting distracted with AI slop In the business cycle this is particularly risky. You'll have a smaller base of users that don't want AI slop, but will keep using your AI anyway even if it's there. But what you lose is the large paying corporate customers that demand 'soup de jour' that end up going to VScode or whatever, and you may never get them back. Building software is hard, being profitable at it is even harder.
    - cpburns2009 10mo ago
      If JetBrains want's to provide a simple plugin for Copilot or Anthropic to keep the vibe coders happy, I'm not going to complain about the feature. It just seems for the past couple years they have been primarily distracted with AI: AI Assistant, Junie, and now agentics.
      - dijit 10mo ago
        Anthropic and Microsoft will make those plugins, they have a direct business incentive to do so.
- misswaterfairy 10mo ago
  I want to begin by saying I love JetBrains IDEs. I go out of my way to personally pay for PyCharm Professional, DataGrip, Rider, and others, and have done so for years, so I can use it at work where the next best thing provided to us is VS Code, or Visual Studio... Please, for the love of all things almighty, re-invest in your core IDEs. That's what you're known for, and that's what professional developers want. I don't want a glorified text editor that does a few cheap tricks, and is 'AI first'. I know I'm going to piss off a few people here rubbishing VS Code, however people are blown away when I show them how much more powerful PyCharm is when debugging complex code. Its embarrassing that there are many popular, numerously starred, issues across JetBrains' YouTrack that have been open for nearly a decade, that are already well integrated features in other, free, IDEs. However all is not lost - you have a great suite of products that need much more tender love and care. They'll see you through. You already have AI in the AI Assistant plugin. Make your core fleet of IDEs worth the investment, for new and existing JetBrains customers alike. AI, agentic or not, will only get programmers so far before it's time to toss the kids toys then break out the real tools that require human intuition, domain knowledge, and reasoning. To pick up on one of the points in the article: > Combining them in a single tool results in a disjointed experience, so the Fleet team chose to stop competing with IDEs and code editors and instead build a product focused on agentic workflows. This led to a pivot to a new product: an agentic development environment. You don't need to develop an entire IDE/environment for this. Develop plugins/enhance the existing AI Assistant plugin for these workflows that integrate with your existing IDEs, 'the real tools' I was talking about above. I feel like this new "agentic development environment" is making the Fleet mistake all over again, when you could be value-adding to your already great suite of IDEs directly by way of plugins, and also continue to refactor and improve your IDEs along the way.
- _boffin_ 10mo ago
  Open source it & let community take over?
- closeparen 10mo ago
  Please make remote development work well in the IntelliJ-based IDEs. It's very difficult to get corporate employers to continue supporting their toolchains locally when VSCode Remote is "good enough" and disposable cloud VMs are so much easier to support/secure/manage/scale. The development experience in IntelliJ-family IDEs is incomparably superior, but you have got to figure out how to run the code indexing on the remote server and the UI locally. This quasi VNC thing isn't it.
- 7e 10mo ago
  Rewrite your core IDEs in Rust, Java/Kotlin suck.
discomrobertul8 10mo ago
> We are now building a new product focused on agentic development This is sad. It seems innovation has all but stopped for IDEs intended for a human as the primary driver.
- conartist6 10mo ago
  It hasn't : ) Hi!
- pixl97 10mo ago
  I mean I see this attitude the same as "Microsoft has taken over the world, no other software will ever succeed" back in the past. Turns out Microsoft didn't take over the world and it was just part of a cycle.
joshstrange 10mo ago
Good, I tried Fleet but it was like VSCode without the extensions (as in a community, they had support for plugins or whatever but the support wasn't there) and I don't like VSCode even with extensions. It was the worst of all worlds. Let the people that want to build an IDE from the ground up have their fun over in VSCode land, please just focus on a powerful IDE that works out of the box. PS: Agentic development is fine to pursue but so far things like Claude Code run laps around everything JetBrains has tried. Add "mount points" for agentic flows but please just focus on making a powerful IDE. Agentic development was unable to lure me away from JetBrains, double down on that, not trying to be Cursor.
- pixl97 10mo ago
  >focus on a powerful IDE that works out of the box. Too bad everyone wants a different one of these.
satvikpendem 10mo ago
If you want a fast native IDE like Fleet except better, try Zed (you can disable all AI features if you wish).
syspec 10mo ago
Alls they need to do is make extensions much much easier to build, especially extensions that render HTML. That's vscode's moat. Anytime the same extension exist in both vscode and jetbrains, the jetbrains version is clunky, crash, and unstable. I keep Jetbrains open while using vscode, for its local history/git/etc features, but how long will that be enough to keep my subscription
- mns 10mo ago
  To be honest, I'm a bit annoyed that I installed maybe 2-3 extensions, and in the last year or so whenever I open one of their IDEs I need to update anywhere from 10 to 25 extensions. What are these things? Where did they come from and why do I have them, I used to see only the extensions that I actually installed, and now there's all kind of stuff that I thought was basic functionality.
  - Aaron2222 10mo ago
    A lot of core functionality is implemented as bundled plugins (they ship with the IDE, but can receive updates separately). They can also be independently disabled (and older versions used to come with only some enabled and ask you which others you want enabled at first launch).
domano 10mo ago
Last week i cancelled my Jetbrains sub after a decade of daily driving it. I just cant take the performance issues anymore. Across 5 different machines all kinds of actions would just take ages and it got worse every year. Moving to Apple Silicon made it bearable for a few months but somehow Jetbrains manages to get slow even on a M3 Max with 36GB RAM. Ive been fiddling with configs for years, i tried everything since i was a Jetbrains diehard. Instead of trying to catch up to other AI editor they should get back to their core and make it possible to use Jetbrains on medium sized Monorepos with multiple languages. I was hyped when i heard they would release a standalone git product, but then they scrapped it! In the end i was only dependent on it for debugging and my usual git workflow. I now switched to zed and gitkraken, i will figure out a new debugging workflow, ill never wait 5 minutes for a simple search action again
- moralestapia 10mo ago
  [flagged]
  - giancarlostoro 10mo ago
    I'm about to cancel mine as well, but JetBrains really does make top quality editors, especially for their respective languages, the next closest one would be Visual Studio for C# / .NET development, and even VS gets enhanced by ReSharper... which is a JetBrains product. I would like it if JetBrains would invest in the performance isssues as a #1 priority. They've dropped the ball on Kotlin Native and it bewilders me, it had so much more potential to their benefit.
  - mhitza 10mo ago
    I don't know how their IDEs were advertised to you or how large the codebases you work on are. I get fast enough autocomplete (sub second), and full line completion just fine, and I never use/buy top of the line systems. (using a midrange ~2020 thinkpad). But I'm in a similar place as the comment you replied to. Unless they start focusing again on improving they existing product line, next year I might not renew my licenses anymore. Before AI took over, I was following closely their release notes and announcements because there where on the right path on improving experience. What makes their IDE look bad is their indexing process, during which it is slow and completions will not show up. If you know about this quirk you know where to look for it (it's visible in the status bar), and know what triggers it (dependencies installation and such). After so many years, I really feel the solution for that is pretty "simple", "just" run the indexing on a snapshot that is not shared with the running instance and swap out indexes when done.
sorcercode 10mo ago
this is bittersweet news. but sigh. Jetbrains really just has no focus. Fleet came at a time when intellij felt extremely bloated. iirc they had painted themselves into a corner where it was easier to rip the band aid and start anew. Fleet was supposed to be that promised editor which was snappy and had the power of intellisense + all things we liked about Intellij editors ... but without the terrible glacial bloat. but in a stroke of bad luck and typical lack of focus from Jetbrains, Fleet just didn't get good enough quickly. I say lack of focus because (like their multiple attempts at AI) Jetbrains also had a lite mode in the start but that didn't work great. then came Fleet. But it was not getting better quickly enough and they changed course to make Fleet their main cross platform editor ... but even that didn't take. I really am worried for Jetbrains and intellij. In a world where even VScode is having its lunch eaten by Cursor, Jetbrains is quickly getting pushed out of the list of contenders. they've squandered away a lead they once had in a certain niche for code editors. I personally only pull up Intellij these days when there's some platform specific tool that's built in (like the emulator in Android Studio) or certain Android specific profiling tools, or the debugger. Otherwise I rarely find myself using Intellij. My usage has dropped precipitously.
- pjmlp 10mo ago
  No worries, as long as Android exists, Google depends on JetBrains, maybe they end up acquiring them.
  - rkomorn 10mo ago
    Honestly can't tell if that would be better or worse. It's not like Google has a track record of not shutting down products.
- rkomorn 10mo ago
  Another example of their wonkiness with Fleet and focus was their whole "Kotlin Multiplaform stuff will be Fleet-first!" which they then (somewhat promptly) reversed to "actually it'll be IntelliJ/Android Studio first" ... and that's not even getting to the macOS-only aspect (also "at first"). Their matrix of features/capabilities across IDEs, platforms, plugins, etc is such a pitfall-happy maze to navigate.
KronisLV 10mo ago
> User feedback was consistent: If you already work with IntelliJ IDEA, Rider, WebStorm, PyCharm, or any other JetBrains IDE, switching to Fleet required a strong reason – and Fleet did not offer enough value to justify the transition from IDEs you already know and love. My problem was that Fleet just wasn't very good when compared with VSC. For my more serious development I use JetBrains IDEs (one of the few pieces of software that I actually pay for, alongside MobaXTerm and some others) but Fleet didn't neither use that much less resources, nor was that much more responsive, nor was a step above VSC in any way. To be clear, I didn't hate it, it wasn't horrible and with a bit more work could have been quite good... just not convincingly so up until now. If they wanted to throw some more years of engineering at it, maybe, I mean look at what Zed is doing and it seems to be okay, but I don't think it makes that much business sense for them - they already have Junie available in their editors for AI stuff and that other subscription (though I just use Claude Code, Codex, Gemini CLI and sometimes VSC with KiloCode/RooCode/Cline and either those models through the API or Cerebras Code since it works pretty well in there). I just find that most AI solutions out there are also a little bit half-baked, like Gemini CLI fails when I paste multiple lines into it, whereas KiloCode/RooCode/Cline are unable to give a model enough helpful instructions for it to not start looping when it fails applying a complex diff sometimes, and pretty much nothing outside of the regular GitHub Copilot plugins does autocomplete decently (especially if you want a local model with Ollama or something, no good options, Continue.dev is trash). With how prevalent AI is and how useful various linters and build output is, sometimes I wonder whether I need to pay hundreds of euros for the Ultimate package of tools when I don't write/refactor as much code manually and doing what I need inside of VSC also feels more and more sufficient. Maybe a bit except Java codebases, Spring Boot sometimes does weird shit and you're better served by an IDE that's aware of all of the templating, annotations and other stuff. Oh well, despite being RAM hogs, I still enjoy the experience of using JetBrains IDEs and if nothing else will keep them around for that reason for a while. A bit like how I also enjoy a GUI of some sort for Git, like previously I paid for GitKraken but reevaluating my usage found that SourceTree is also decent enough for the price (free vs GitKraken paid version), I can just drop down to the CLI for niche use cases.
giancarlostoro 10mo ago
> We confirmed that another AI editor would not stand out, especially in a market filled with AI-first VS Code forks. It became increasingly clear that the best path forward was to strengthen AI workflows in our existing IDEs. However, rapid progress in AI revealed a different niche where Fleet fits much more naturally. It would stand out if you focused on performance and not rebuilding another sluggish Java based editor. Zed is what I'll be ditching my JetBrains sub for, and it is not just some VS Code based editor. What happened to JetBrains? They used to be amazing, now its just disappointment all around? Did they elect a terrible CEO?
qcnguy 10mo ago
It's probably a wise move and not so different to what many other companies have experienced in the past. Netscape tried to remake Navigator whilst halting development on the old codebase, and it killed them. Microsoft tried to remake Word, the rewrite failed. Luckily they had continued to develop the old codebase in parallel. Google tried to remake Gmail multiple times. Every attempt failed. Apple tried for years to remake MacOS Classic and failed every time. Eventually they had to buy and reskin NeXTStep. Banks are full of war stories trying to migrate off their old mainframe codebases, and often giving up. I kinda expected Fleet to die from the day it was first announced. IntelliJ is an extremely mature product that's hard to compete with. They've continually managed big changes to it to keep up with changing fashions and trends in the IDE space, most recently with their new Islands theme that launched yesterday, with integrated coding agents and so on. It's outlasted continuous competition from free IDEs that are always abandoned after enough years pass and whichever executive was championing subsidies moves on or retires (see: NetBeans, Eclipse, VS Express, MonoDevelop...). VS Code isn't so different. Fleet was clearly a reaction to that but the concept was not innovative and focused on reinventing wheels that users wouldn't be able to tell the difference for and which would consume most of their budget, like writing a new UI toolkit, or using a split frontend/backend architecture. Same mistake Mozilla made. Meanwhile IntelliJ was continuously refactored and improved, so Fleet chased a moving target even when they reused a lot of code. Although people will hate to hear it, the history of the IDE market suggests that eventually MS will get tired of funding VS Code without a big revenue stream to justify its existence. Executives like making new projects and being able to present growth because it represents glittering future potential, but they hate being landed with the maintenance of loss making legacy projects when the originators move on. There's no glory there. For all their problems, JetBrains aren't going to lose interest in their core products due to random executive churn, and that has given their core IDEs a remarkable staying power.
- 8fingerlouie 10mo ago
  "Banks are full of war stories trying to migrate off their old mainframe codebases, and often giving up." Most of the time it's a question of trying to apply "death by a thousand cuts" to their codebase, which works well enough as long as you're in the periphery, but eventually they start moving into "core business", you know that entangled mess that has 60 years old code that still runs today, and they realize they need to rewrite all of it, which will take a long time, and cost a lot of money, and they forget about it again for a few years. It's the same problem everywhere with large and old codebases. You can easily amputate a tentacle here and there, but as soon as you get to the core of it, it is basically one giant monolith, and with age there has been added loads of "integrations" or "shortcuts" between various subsystems, and nobody in the company today has any idea why it is like it is, it just is and it works. A bank I used to work for had somewhere around 50000 batch programs running nightly. Some were the same program running multiple times, but at least 20000 were "unique" programs. All of those programs had to fit like pearls on a string, each working off of the output of the previous program in the chain. Untangling that mess is like peeling an onion one layer at a time, with the added bonus that the output of one program might be the final result for some report, and at the same time the input for some other program that needs to do something else. Add to that, that there's no inherent problem with the mainframe or COBOL. They both work, and reliably as well. Both can push some serious IO through the system, loads that many x86/x64 builds would struggle with. The conventional answer to IO problems is eventual consistency, which doesn't really work well with finance, at least not if applied broadly. You can get some of the way with slicing / partitioning, but you will still have to deal with a lot of traffic between partitions.
vr46 10mo ago
I left JetBrains in January after a very long time; with the new UI, there was realistically not a lot separating it from VSCode, and it was clear where all the fun was. I didn’t really want to switch to VSC but the extensions made it easy to find things that you just couldn’t do in IntelliJ, and… I haven’t looked back. Haven’t really missed the suite at all.
mariusor 10mo ago
This seems to be hot on the trail of a new Island UI which is, sadly a terrible update. Everything has become bog slow in the latest version of the IDE, from opening the application to typing latency and cursor movement.
binary132 10mo ago
I honestly have no idea why anyone pays for intellij besides a couple of the more niche editors, maybe.
- Argonaut998 10mo ago
  For Java development nothing comes close. VSCode feels like a text editor in comparison, even with its extensions As for general development JetBrains just works. VSCode requires a bunch of extensions made by different independent authors with different standards and it just feels glued together and inconsistent
  - pjmlp 10mo ago
    As if. InteliJ only recently acquired the capability to use Clion plugins for JNI development, something that Eclipse and Netbeans have been capable of for the last 20 years, more or less. They still don't have an incremental Java compiler, yeah you can use the one from Eclipse, so there is yet another thing that it doesn't do better. Finally, what is with all that indexing after all these years?
    - Argonaut998 9mo ago
      Fair enough, I'm not a Java developer actually, but I know all the guys in work use it over everything else. I've tried VSCode for Java development a few years ago and it wasn't suitable as an IDE, just as a file editor.
ianberdin 10mo ago
Interesting how much churn did they have because of Cursor? Personally I thought I would never switch from Pycharm/Webstorm after 12 years of using. 1 day and no way to go back. Insane. I saw they implemented custom AI model and it was useless compared to frontier models. The moment is lost. I hope they will catch up and show who is the king.
ffsm8 10mo ago
A few days ago I found out that the jetbrains toolbox doesn't actually log you out when you're logging out - they just seemingly stop renewing your token I found out about it because switching accounts isn't possible, you get logged into your old account unless some time has elapses. Not a big security issue though, I mean after a day or so it it's actually logged out, just not within the same hour (no idea how long it actually takes - just know it's not within an hour)
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rado 10mo ago
Fleet was snappy and looked great. What was the font? The fact that the crème de la creme, peak of civilization, agentic coding, is now running on top of the worst technology in the world, Electron, is infinitely sad.
jrozner 10mo ago
Fleet was a terrible product. I’m a long time jetbrains user and still use goland, rust rover, and clion. I was really excited when it got announced because I had had a lot of issues with vs code, extensions, and lsp at the time. I was hoping jetbrains was going to build something competitive but it never materialized. Rather than building something lightweight and fast on a native ui toolkit with faster analysis engines they basically built on top of a lot of the tech that was the bad parts of their existing IDEs. important features and the ability for community extensions to fill them never came to fleet which meant it never could replace other tools for real work and jetbrains seemed to focus on building LLM features to capture the hype rather than fixing the issues people have with their existing products. Instead they have mediocre ai features that are essentially commoditized and IDEs that are under invested in that are sluggish. In terms of full batteries included IDEs they’re still probably the best, but they’re losing a lot of the market.
exceptione 10mo ago
For Jetbrains: if LLM's are such a terrific productivity booster, why don't you put it to work to speed through all your open tickets and get the product in top shape? In the time you saved you can build agentic whatevers. Or LLM's aren't really that great after all? Then focus on your damn IDE. Leave refactoring by hallucination to the electron kids and just provide stable and performant editors and analyses around Abstract Syntax Trees.
- aleph_minus_one 10mo ago
  There is (unluckily) a third option (the one that LLM fans like to promote): Currently LLMs are a rather bad productivity booster for programming, but in the near future, this will change. Whatever IDE has exceptional support for the workflows that will be possible by AI will have an insanely attractive value proposition in the future.
  - blibble 10mo ago
    > Currently LLMs are a rather bad productivity booster for programming, but in the near future, this will change. been hearing this for three years now
    - aleph_minus_one 10mo ago
      I am similarly doubtful of such claims, but just look at various posts on HN where the writers makes claims how much more productive Claude Code (before: Cursor; before that: (GitHub) Copilot) made their programming.
      - blibble 10mo ago
        almost all brand new accounts, or with 50 karma
spicyusername 10mo ago
I have been paying for JetBrains for years, but, as many have pointed out in this thread, between the performance issues and agentic IDEs like Cursor, it's getting harder and harder to justify. JetBrains, just focus on improving the existing IDEs and naturally embedding access to third party LLM agents in them and you're good to go.
- jval43 10mo ago
  It's crazy that I'm paying for IntellJ yet can't hook up my own LLM to it. Jetbrains wants to be some middleman instead of letting me use my tools. I won't and I can't use your hosted LLMs, period.
  - thunderfork 10mo ago
    I'm pretty sure it supports hooking up to llama, doesn't it?
sbennettmcleish 10mo ago
Quite timely, I cancelled my personal all-products yesterday, likely going to re-direct those $ to a Claude subscription. In recent times it seems like IntelliJ has become what I ran away from Eclipse for, i.e. bloat and non-performance.
- letwhile 10mo ago
  You only noticed that intellij is bloated and slow in "recent times"? I call bs
pjmlp 10mo ago
To be expected, it had little value against VSCode and all its forks, or the hardcore users with their custom Emacs and vi forks.
estimator7292 10mo ago
I really feel like JetBrains has no idea what their value proposition is anymore. It used to be that no matter what language you were working with, JetBrains was the answer for the serious poweruser. Now JetBrains is little more than VSCode with a subscription. They've absolutely ruined the UI, performance keeps getting worse, they're trying really hard to shove their useless AI at you, and when you complain about it, you either get dismissed, deleted, or gaslighted. JetBrains is actively pushing out their base power users and betting the entire farm on taking a small percentage of VSCode users. All the old hats like me are canceling subscriptions while new users are piling onto the free versions and are unlikely to convert to paid. Because again, JetBrains has stripped their programs of any utility or identity and just made a cheap VSCode clone that costs a ridiculous amount of money for no apparent benefit. I'm really mad about this. JetBrains made IDEs that sparked joy. It was a real tool for real professionals that need to get shit done and not play 40 goddamn questions to find the unlabeled button I'm looking for. They used to get out of your way and stay there. Now I have disembodied text floating in an undifferentiated sea of whitespace and hieroglyphs. And through all of this, JetBrains insists that I'm wrong for wanting labeled buttons or for not wanting a new UI. A JetBrains employee told me to my face that the new UI had to happen because they must innovate. They did not offer a response when asked about what they've innovated instead of copying from VSCode. JetBrains put essentially all core development on halt for years and spent millions of dollars on the UI redesign. They brag about how many thousands of bugs they fixed in the new UI, and seem to be unaware that they're bragging that they created several thousand new bugs instead of fixing old ones. JetBrains has totally lost the plot and are on the fast track to irrelevance.

114 points by guitcastro 10mo ago

Fleet started as our attempt to explore a new generation of JetBrains IDEs, developed in parallel with those based on the IntelliJ Platform. Over time, we learned that having two general-purpose IDE families created confusion and diluted our focus. Rebuilding the full capabilities of IntelliJ-based IDEs inside Fleet did not create enough value, and positioning Fleet as yet another editor did not justify maintaining two overlapping product lines.

cpburns2009 10mo ago
Dropping Fleet is a good move. Just please for the love of God focus on your IDEs. Stop getting distracted with AI slop.
- pixl97 10mo ago
  >Stop getting distracted with AI slop In the business cycle this is particularly risky. You'll have a smaller base of users that don't want AI slop, but will keep using your AI anyway even if it's there. But what you lose is the large paying corporate customers that demand 'soup de jour' that end up going to VScode or whatever, and you may never get them back. Building software is hard, being profitable at it is even harder.
  - cpburns2009 10mo ago
    If JetBrains want's to provide a simple plugin for Copilot or Anthropic to keep the vibe coders happy, I'm not going to complain about the feature. It just seems for the past couple years they have been primarily distracted with AI: AI Assistant, Junie, and now agentics.
    - dijit 10mo ago
      Anthropic and Microsoft will make those plugins, they have a direct business incentive to do so.
misswaterfairy 10mo ago
I want to begin by saying I love JetBrains IDEs. I go out of my way to personally pay for PyCharm Professional, DataGrip, Rider, and others, and have done so for years, so I can use it at work where the next best thing provided to us is VS Code, or Visual Studio... Please, for the love of all things almighty, re-invest in your core IDEs. That's what you're known for, and that's what professional developers want. I don't want a glorified text editor that does a few cheap tricks, and is 'AI first'. I know I'm going to piss off a few people here rubbishing VS Code, however people are blown away when I show them how much more powerful PyCharm is when debugging complex code. Its embarrassing that there are many popular, numerously starred, issues across JetBrains' YouTrack that have been open for nearly a decade, that are already well integrated features in other, free, IDEs. However all is not lost - you have a great suite of products that need much more tender love and care. They'll see you through. You already have AI in the AI Assistant plugin. Make your core fleet of IDEs worth the investment, for new and existing JetBrains customers alike. AI, agentic or not, will only get programmers so far before it's time to toss the kids toys then break out the real tools that require human intuition, domain knowledge, and reasoning. To pick up on one of the points in the article: > Combining them in a single tool results in a disjointed experience, so the Fleet team chose to stop competing with IDEs and code editors and instead build a product focused on agentic workflows. This led to a pivot to a new product: an agentic development environment. You don't need to develop an entire IDE/environment for this. Develop plugins/enhance the existing AI Assistant plugin for these workflows that integrate with your existing IDEs, 'the real tools' I was talking about above. I feel like this new "agentic development environment" is making the Fleet mistake all over again, when you could be value-adding to your already great suite of IDEs directly by way of plugins, and also continue to refactor and improve your IDEs along the way.
_boffin_ 10mo ago
Open source it & let community take over?
closeparen 10mo ago
Please make remote development work well in the IntelliJ-based IDEs. It's very difficult to get corporate employers to continue supporting their toolchains locally when VSCode Remote is "good enough" and disposable cloud VMs are so much easier to support/secure/manage/scale. The development experience in IntelliJ-family IDEs is incomparably superior, but you have got to figure out how to run the code indexing on the remote server and the UI locally. This quasi VNC thing isn't it.
7e 10mo ago
Rewrite your core IDEs in Rust, Java/Kotlin suck.

discomrobertul8 10mo ago

> We are now building a new product focused on agentic development This is sad. It seems innovation has all but stopped for IDEs intended for a human as the primary driver.

conartist6 10mo ago
It hasn't : ) Hi!
pixl97 10mo ago
I mean I see this attitude the same as "Microsoft has taken over the world, no other software will ever succeed" back in the past. Turns out Microsoft didn't take over the world and it was just part of a cycle.

joshstrange 10mo ago

Good, I tried Fleet but it was like VSCode without the extensions (as in a community, they had support for plugins or whatever but the support wasn't there) and I don't like VSCode even with extensions. It was the worst of all worlds. Let the people that want to build an IDE from the ground up have their fun over in VSCode land, please just focus on a powerful IDE that works out of the box. PS: Agentic development is fine to pursue but so far things like Claude Code run laps around everything JetBrains has tried. Add "mount points" for agentic flows but please just focus on making a powerful IDE. Agentic development was unable to lure me away from JetBrains, double down on that, not trying to be Cursor.

pixl97 10mo ago
>focus on a powerful IDE that works out of the box. Too bad everyone wants a different one of these.

satvikpendem 10mo ago

If you want a fast native IDE like Fleet except better, try Zed (you can disable all AI features if you wish).

syspec 10mo ago

Alls they need to do is make extensions much much easier to build, especially extensions that render HTML. That's vscode's moat. Anytime the same extension exist in both vscode and jetbrains, the jetbrains version is clunky, crash, and unstable. I keep Jetbrains open while using vscode, for its local history/git/etc features, but how long will that be enough to keep my subscription

mns 10mo ago
To be honest, I'm a bit annoyed that I installed maybe 2-3 extensions, and in the last year or so whenever I open one of their IDEs I need to update anywhere from 10 to 25 extensions. What are these things? Where did they come from and why do I have them, I used to see only the extensions that I actually installed, and now there's all kind of stuff that I thought was basic functionality.
- Aaron2222 10mo ago
  A lot of core functionality is implemented as bundled plugins (they ship with the IDE, but can receive updates separately). They can also be independently disabled (and older versions used to come with only some enabled and ask you which others you want enabled at first launch).

domano 10mo ago

Last week i cancelled my Jetbrains sub after a decade of daily driving it. I just cant take the performance issues anymore. Across 5 different machines all kinds of actions would just take ages and it got worse every year. Moving to Apple Silicon made it bearable for a few months but somehow Jetbrains manages to get slow even on a M3 Max with 36GB RAM. Ive been fiddling with configs for years, i tried everything since i was a Jetbrains diehard. Instead of trying to catch up to other AI editor they should get back to their core and make it possible to use Jetbrains on medium sized Monorepos with multiple languages. I was hyped when i heard they would release a standalone git product, but then they scrapped it! In the end i was only dependent on it for debugging and my usual git workflow. I now switched to zed and gitkraken, i will figure out a new debugging workflow, ill never wait 5 minutes for a simple search action again

moralestapia 10mo ago
[flagged]
- giancarlostoro 10mo ago
  I'm about to cancel mine as well, but JetBrains really does make top quality editors, especially for their respective languages, the next closest one would be Visual Studio for C# / .NET development, and even VS gets enhanced by ReSharper... which is a JetBrains product. I would like it if JetBrains would invest in the performance isssues as a #1 priority. They've dropped the ball on Kotlin Native and it bewilders me, it had so much more potential to their benefit.
- mhitza 10mo ago
  I don't know how their IDEs were advertised to you or how large the codebases you work on are. I get fast enough autocomplete (sub second), and full line completion just fine, and I never use/buy top of the line systems. (using a midrange ~2020 thinkpad). But I'm in a similar place as the comment you replied to. Unless they start focusing again on improving they existing product line, next year I might not renew my licenses anymore. Before AI took over, I was following closely their release notes and announcements because there where on the right path on improving experience. What makes their IDE look bad is their indexing process, during which it is slow and completions will not show up. If you know about this quirk you know where to look for it (it's visible in the status bar), and know what triggers it (dependencies installation and such). After so many years, I really feel the solution for that is pretty "simple", "just" run the indexing on a snapshot that is not shared with the running instance and swap out indexes when done.

sorcercode 10mo ago

this is bittersweet news. but sigh. Jetbrains really just has no focus. Fleet came at a time when intellij felt extremely bloated. iirc they had painted themselves into a corner where it was easier to rip the band aid and start anew. Fleet was supposed to be that promised editor which was snappy and had the power of intellisense + all things we liked about Intellij editors ... but without the terrible glacial bloat. but in a stroke of bad luck and typical lack of focus from Jetbrains, Fleet just didn't get good enough quickly. I say lack of focus because (like their multiple attempts at AI) Jetbrains also had a lite mode in the start but that didn't work great. then came Fleet. But it was not getting better quickly enough and they changed course to make Fleet their main cross platform editor ... but even that didn't take. I really am worried for Jetbrains and intellij. In a world where even VScode is having its lunch eaten by Cursor, Jetbrains is quickly getting pushed out of the list of contenders. they've squandered away a lead they once had in a certain niche for code editors. I personally only pull up Intellij these days when there's some platform specific tool that's built in (like the emulator in Android Studio) or certain Android specific profiling tools, or the debugger. Otherwise I rarely find myself using Intellij. My usage has dropped precipitously.

pjmlp 10mo ago
No worries, as long as Android exists, Google depends on JetBrains, maybe they end up acquiring them.
- rkomorn 10mo ago
  Honestly can't tell if that would be better or worse. It's not like Google has a track record of not shutting down products.
rkomorn 10mo ago
Another example of their wonkiness with Fleet and focus was their whole "Kotlin Multiplaform stuff will be Fleet-first!" which they then (somewhat promptly) reversed to "actually it'll be IntelliJ/Android Studio first" ... and that's not even getting to the macOS-only aspect (also "at first"). Their matrix of features/capabilities across IDEs, platforms, plugins, etc is such a pitfall-happy maze to navigate.

KronisLV 10mo ago

> User feedback was consistent: If you already work with IntelliJ IDEA, Rider, WebStorm, PyCharm, or any other JetBrains IDE, switching to Fleet required a strong reason – and Fleet did not offer enough value to justify the transition from IDEs you already know and love. My problem was that Fleet just wasn't very good when compared with VSC. For my more serious development I use JetBrains IDEs (one of the few pieces of software that I actually pay for, alongside MobaXTerm and some others) but Fleet didn't neither use that much less resources, nor was that much more responsive, nor was a step above VSC in any way. To be clear, I didn't hate it, it wasn't horrible and with a bit more work could have been quite good... just not convincingly so up until now. If they wanted to throw some more years of engineering at it, maybe, I mean look at what Zed is doing and it seems to be okay, but I don't think it makes that much business sense for them - they already have Junie available in their editors for AI stuff and that other subscription (though I just use Claude Code, Codex, Gemini CLI and sometimes VSC with KiloCode/RooCode/Cline and either those models through the API or Cerebras Code since it works pretty well in there). I just find that most AI solutions out there are also a little bit half-baked, like Gemini CLI fails when I paste multiple lines into it, whereas KiloCode/RooCode/Cline are unable to give a model enough helpful instructions for it to not start looping when it fails applying a complex diff sometimes, and pretty much nothing outside of the regular GitHub Copilot plugins does autocomplete decently (especially if you want a local model with Ollama or something, no good options, Continue.dev is trash). With how prevalent AI is and how useful various linters and build output is, sometimes I wonder whether I need to pay hundreds of euros for the Ultimate package of tools when I don't write/refactor as much code manually and doing what I need inside of VSC also feels more and more sufficient. Maybe a bit except Java codebases, Spring Boot sometimes does weird shit and you're better served by an IDE that's aware of all of the templating, annotations and other stuff. Oh well, despite being RAM hogs, I still enjoy the experience of using JetBrains IDEs and if nothing else will keep them around for that reason for a while. A bit like how I also enjoy a GUI of some sort for Git, like previously I paid for GitKraken but reevaluating my usage found that SourceTree is also decent enough for the price (free vs GitKraken paid version), I can just drop down to the CLI for niche use cases.

giancarlostoro 10mo ago

> We confirmed that another AI editor would not stand out, especially in a market filled with AI-first VS Code forks. It became increasingly clear that the best path forward was to strengthen AI workflows in our existing IDEs. However, rapid progress in AI revealed a different niche where Fleet fits much more naturally. It would stand out if you focused on performance and not rebuilding another sluggish Java based editor. Zed is what I'll be ditching my JetBrains sub for, and it is not just some VS Code based editor. What happened to JetBrains? They used to be amazing, now its just disappointment all around? Did they elect a terrible CEO?

qcnguy 10mo ago

It's probably a wise move and not so different to what many other companies have experienced in the past. Netscape tried to remake Navigator whilst halting development on the old codebase, and it killed them. Microsoft tried to remake Word, the rewrite failed. Luckily they had continued to develop the old codebase in parallel. Google tried to remake Gmail multiple times. Every attempt failed. Apple tried for years to remake MacOS Classic and failed every time. Eventually they had to buy and reskin NeXTStep. Banks are full of war stories trying to migrate off their old mainframe codebases, and often giving up. I kinda expected Fleet to die from the day it was first announced. IntelliJ is an extremely mature product that's hard to compete with. They've continually managed big changes to it to keep up with changing fashions and trends in the IDE space, most recently with their new Islands theme that launched yesterday, with integrated coding agents and so on. It's outlasted continuous competition from free IDEs that are always abandoned after enough years pass and whichever executive was championing subsidies moves on or retires (see: NetBeans, Eclipse, VS Express, MonoDevelop...). VS Code isn't so different. Fleet was clearly a reaction to that but the concept was not innovative and focused on reinventing wheels that users wouldn't be able to tell the difference for and which would consume most of their budget, like writing a new UI toolkit, or using a split frontend/backend architecture. Same mistake Mozilla made. Meanwhile IntelliJ was continuously refactored and improved, so Fleet chased a moving target even when they reused a lot of code. Although people will hate to hear it, the history of the IDE market suggests that eventually MS will get tired of funding VS Code without a big revenue stream to justify its existence. Executives like making new projects and being able to present growth because it represents glittering future potential, but they hate being landed with the maintenance of loss making legacy projects when the originators move on. There's no glory there. For all their problems, JetBrains aren't going to lose interest in their core products due to random executive churn, and that has given their core IDEs a remarkable staying power.

8fingerlouie 10mo ago
"Banks are full of war stories trying to migrate off their old mainframe codebases, and often giving up." Most of the time it's a question of trying to apply "death by a thousand cuts" to their codebase, which works well enough as long as you're in the periphery, but eventually they start moving into "core business", you know that entangled mess that has 60 years old code that still runs today, and they realize they need to rewrite all of it, which will take a long time, and cost a lot of money, and they forget about it again for a few years. It's the same problem everywhere with large and old codebases. You can easily amputate a tentacle here and there, but as soon as you get to the core of it, it is basically one giant monolith, and with age there has been added loads of "integrations" or "shortcuts" between various subsystems, and nobody in the company today has any idea why it is like it is, it just is and it works. A bank I used to work for had somewhere around 50000 batch programs running nightly. Some were the same program running multiple times, but at least 20000 were "unique" programs. All of those programs had to fit like pearls on a string, each working off of the output of the previous program in the chain. Untangling that mess is like peeling an onion one layer at a time, with the added bonus that the output of one program might be the final result for some report, and at the same time the input for some other program that needs to do something else. Add to that, that there's no inherent problem with the mainframe or COBOL. They both work, and reliably as well. Both can push some serious IO through the system, loads that many x86/x64 builds would struggle with. The conventional answer to IO problems is eventual consistency, which doesn't really work well with finance, at least not if applied broadly. You can get some of the way with slicing / partitioning, but you will still have to deal with a lot of traffic between partitions.

vr46 10mo ago

I left JetBrains in January after a very long time; with the new UI, there was realistically not a lot separating it from VSCode, and it was clear where all the fun was. I didn’t really want to switch to VSC but the extensions made it easy to find things that you just couldn’t do in IntelliJ, and… I haven’t looked back. Haven’t really missed the suite at all.

mariusor 10mo ago

This seems to be hot on the trail of a new Island UI which is, sadly a terrible update. Everything has become bog slow in the latest version of the IDE, from opening the application to typing latency and cursor movement.

binary132 10mo ago

I honestly have no idea why anyone pays for intellij besides a couple of the more niche editors, maybe.

Argonaut998 10mo ago
For Java development nothing comes close. VSCode feels like a text editor in comparison, even with its extensions As for general development JetBrains just works. VSCode requires a bunch of extensions made by different independent authors with different standards and it just feels glued together and inconsistent
- pjmlp 10mo ago
  As if. InteliJ only recently acquired the capability to use Clion plugins for JNI development, something that Eclipse and Netbeans have been capable of for the last 20 years, more or less. They still don't have an incremental Java compiler, yeah you can use the one from Eclipse, so there is yet another thing that it doesn't do better. Finally, what is with all that indexing after all these years?
  - Argonaut998 9mo ago
    Fair enough, I'm not a Java developer actually, but I know all the guys in work use it over everything else. I've tried VSCode for Java development a few years ago and it wasn't suitable as an IDE, just as a file editor.

ianberdin 10mo ago

Interesting how much churn did they have because of Cursor? Personally I thought I would never switch from Pycharm/Webstorm after 12 years of using. 1 day and no way to go back. Insane. I saw they implemented custom AI model and it was useless compared to frontier models. The moment is lost. I hope they will catch up and show who is the king.

ffsm8 10mo ago

A few days ago I found out that the jetbrains toolbox doesn't actually log you out when you're logging out - they just seemingly stop renewing your token I found out about it because switching accounts isn't possible, you get logged into your old account unless some time has elapses. Not a big security issue though, I mean after a day or so it it's actually logged out, just not within the same hour (no idea how long it actually takes - just know it's not within an hour)

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rado 10mo ago

Fleet was snappy and looked great. What was the font? The fact that the crème de la creme, peak of civilization, agentic coding, is now running on top of the worst technology in the world, Electron, is infinitely sad.

jrozner 10mo ago

Fleet was a terrible product. I’m a long time jetbrains user and still use goland, rust rover, and clion. I was really excited when it got announced because I had had a lot of issues with vs code, extensions, and lsp at the time. I was hoping jetbrains was going to build something competitive but it never materialized. Rather than building something lightweight and fast on a native ui toolkit with faster analysis engines they basically built on top of a lot of the tech that was the bad parts of their existing IDEs. important features and the ability for community extensions to fill them never came to fleet which meant it never could replace other tools for real work and jetbrains seemed to focus on building LLM features to capture the hype rather than fixing the issues people have with their existing products. Instead they have mediocre ai features that are essentially commoditized and IDEs that are under invested in that are sluggish. In terms of full batteries included IDEs they’re still probably the best, but they’re losing a lot of the market.

exceptione 10mo ago

For Jetbrains: if LLM's are such a terrific productivity booster, why don't you put it to work to speed through all your open tickets and get the product in top shape? In the time you saved you can build agentic whatevers. Or LLM's aren't really that great after all? Then focus on your damn IDE. Leave refactoring by hallucination to the electron kids and just provide stable and performant editors and analyses around Abstract Syntax Trees.

aleph_minus_one 10mo ago
There is (unluckily) a third option (the one that LLM fans like to promote): Currently LLMs are a rather bad productivity booster for programming, but in the near future, this will change. Whatever IDE has exceptional support for the workflows that will be possible by AI will have an insanely attractive value proposition in the future.
- blibble 10mo ago
  > Currently LLMs are a rather bad productivity booster for programming, but in the near future, this will change. been hearing this for three years now
  - aleph_minus_one 10mo ago
    I am similarly doubtful of such claims, but just look at various posts on HN where the writers makes claims how much more productive Claude Code (before: Cursor; before that: (GitHub) Copilot) made their programming.
    - blibble 10mo ago
      almost all brand new accounts, or with 50 karma

spicyusername 10mo ago

I have been paying for JetBrains for years, but, as many have pointed out in this thread, between the performance issues and agentic IDEs like Cursor, it's getting harder and harder to justify. JetBrains, just focus on improving the existing IDEs and naturally embedding access to third party LLM agents in them and you're good to go.

jval43 10mo ago
It's crazy that I'm paying for IntellJ yet can't hook up my own LLM to it. Jetbrains wants to be some middleman instead of letting me use my tools. I won't and I can't use your hosted LLMs, period.
- thunderfork 10mo ago
  I'm pretty sure it supports hooking up to llama, doesn't it?

sbennettmcleish 10mo ago

Quite timely, I cancelled my personal all-products yesterday, likely going to re-direct those $ to a Claude subscription. In recent times it seems like IntelliJ has become what I ran away from Eclipse for, i.e. bloat and non-performance.

letwhile 10mo ago
You only noticed that intellij is bloated and slow in "recent times"? I call bs

pjmlp 10mo ago

To be expected, it had little value against VSCode and all its forks, or the hardcore users with their custom Emacs and vi forks.

estimator7292 10mo ago

I really feel like JetBrains has no idea what their value proposition is anymore. It used to be that no matter what language you were working with, JetBrains was the answer for the serious poweruser. Now JetBrains is little more than VSCode with a subscription. They've absolutely ruined the UI, performance keeps getting worse, they're trying really hard to shove their useless AI at you, and when you complain about it, you either get dismissed, deleted, or gaslighted. JetBrains is actively pushing out their base power users and betting the entire farm on taking a small percentage of VSCode users. All the old hats like me are canceling subscriptions while new users are piling onto the free versions and are unlikely to convert to paid. Because again, JetBrains has stripped their programs of any utility or identity and just made a cheap VSCode clone that costs a ridiculous amount of money for no apparent benefit. I'm really mad about this. JetBrains made IDEs that sparked joy. It was a real tool for real professionals that need to get shit done and not play 40 goddamn questions to find the unlabeled button I'm looking for. They used to get out of your way and stay there. Now I have disembodied text floating in an undifferentiated sea of whitespace and hieroglyphs. And through all of this, JetBrains insists that I'm wrong for wanting labeled buttons or for not wanting a new UI. A JetBrains employee told me to my face that the new UI had to happen because they must innovate. They did not offer a response when asked about what they've innovated instead of copying from VSCode. JetBrains put essentially all core development on halt for years and spent millions of dollars on the UI redesign. They brag about how many thousands of bugs they fixed in the new UI, and seem to be unaware that they're bragging that they created several thousand new bugs instead of fixing old ones. JetBrains has totally lost the plot and are on the fast track to irrelevance.