6 ms·

hamas present in west bank. there are areas that are no go for palestinian authority in west bank because of it. year ago PA tried to clean hamas from those are

by tguvot 10mo ago

hamas present in west bank. there are areas that are no go for palestinian authority in west bank because of it. year ago PA tried to clean hamas from those areas, got it ass kicked and asked Israel for help. Major reason why there are no elections in west bank, it's because current palestinian government knows that hamas will win

chimineycricket 10mo ago
I'm following your reasoning. Most West Bank residents are terrorist supporters and therefore they should be...killed?
- jameshilliard 10mo ago
  > I'm following your reasoning. Most West Bank residents are terrorist supporters and therefore they should be...killed? There probably needs to be some sort of serious de-radicalization process in the West Bank if there is to be any chance of ending the occupation without starting another war. Israel was taught that unilateral disengagement is not a viable strategy for peace, it didn't work in Gaza and it didn't work in Lebanon either with Hezbollah, peace in the region comes from bilateral peace agreements that are agreed to by both sides(i.e. like with Jordan/Egypt) and not from unilateral actions on the part of Israel(like the 2005 Gaza disengagement).
  - chimineycricket 10mo ago
    Do you really believe Israel wants to stop occupying the West Bank? Just this month Israel killed 2 brothers (children), because they were identified as a threat. They continue to expand settlements, and they bomb during ceasefires. Can you give me any example of Israel really attempting peace? 2005 disengagement, but they have the levers to keep Gazans on the brink of death, by bottlenecking food, water, etc. Just because it's called disengagement, doesn't mean it really is. Don't accept their propaganda at face value, or anyone's, obviously. "Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas ... This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank."
    - jameshilliard 10mo ago
      > Do you really believe Israel wants to stop occupying the West Bank? In the past there has been some desire to do so, although that's faded quite a bit as it has become clear there is at the moment no real partner for peace on the Palestinian side. Palestinians need a leader who is truly interested in peace, sort of like Sadat was in Egypt who was critical to normalizing relations with Israel. Ultimately what many in Israel want is a real peace deal, but without a party on the other side that's going to be pretty difficult. > Just this month Israel killed 2 brothers (children), because they were identified as a threat. I'm not sure what specific incident this is in reference to but there are plenty of security threats in both the West Bank and Gaza, and it's pretty well known that Hamas uses child soldiers as well as human shields. > They continue to expand settlements I agree this is problematic, but terrorism is likely only going to encourage settlement expansion as settlements are seen by some in Israel as providing a security barrier. Israel is a country lacking in strategic depth[0] and the West Bank is especially problematic due to its proximity cities like Tel Aviv. After the previous failed unilateral disengagements in Gaza and Lebanon I think it's extremely unlikely for Israel to continue with that strategy. > they bomb during ceasefires Often in retaliation for ceasefire violations on the part of terrorists. > Can you give me any example of Israel really attempting peace? For example the 2000 Camp David Summit, where Israel made a number of offers that Palestinian leadership rejected without making any concrete counteroffers, this peace attempt immediately preceded the Second Intifada. Part of the reason Israel is often wary of peace attempts like this is due to Palestinian leadership not negotiating in good faith. > 2005 disengagement, but they have the levers to keep Gazans on the brink of death, by bottlenecking food, water, etc. What do you expect Israel to do when Hamas starts attacking Israel and stockpiling weapons. If Israel hadn't been attacked I think it would have been pretty unlikely for them to have blockaded Gaza. > Just because it's called disengagement, doesn't mean it really is. Don't accept their propaganda at face value, or anyone's, obviously. They evicted every Israeli from Gaza and gave it a try, clearly unilateral disengagement just doesn't work, and in the case of Lebanon with Hezbollah Israel had a similar issue and there wasn't even a blockade there. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_depth#In_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_depth#In_Israel
      - 10mo ago
  - Saline9515 10mo ago
    Do you think that the religious israeli colonizers who steal the homes of Palestinians are normal people? How would you react if I opened your door, changed the lock, then pointed an AR-15 at you and told you to leave? Because it's what's happening right now in the West Bank.
    - tguvot 10mo ago
      could you please show me 10 example of this in last year in west bank ? or in last 5 years. real documented examples, not some articles about settlers stealing homes
      - Saline9515 10mo ago
        If you speak French (or ask an native french speaker "indigenous" to translate), you can have an ultra-orthodox Israeli explaining how to steal land in the West Bank. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rwmE9JDZbTE https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rwmE9JDZbTE Here images of a "house-jacking": https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5D5-0bKtwuY https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5D5-0bKtwuY
        tguvot 10mo ago
        just for record, nobody in last few years was able to show 10 examples. or 5. but only few had enough integrity to admit that they can't find any despite it been "well known fact"
        Saline9515 10mo ago
        If in 30 seconds of google search I can find occurrences of it in the Israeli press, it's likely quite common, yeah. https://archive.is/5aHCb https://archive.is/5aHCb
        tguvot 10mo ago
        it doesn't track with "opened your door, changed the lock, then pointed an AR-15 at you and told you to leave". looks like they were searching for something stolen.
dragonwriter 10mo ago
> PA tried to clean hamas from those areas, got it ass kicked and asked Israel for help. PA has to ask Israel to do anything of substance in the WB, because the WB is a mix of Israeli and PA controlled areas, with Israel controlling internal boundaries even between adjacent PA-controlled areas. > Major reason why there are no elections in west bank, it's because current palestinian government knows that hamas will win No, the only reason is that Israel has refused to cooperate with all-Palestine elections negotiated and agreed to between Fatah (the party in control of the PA government) and Hamas, on multiple occasions (because Israel administers parts of the WB, and for other reasons, active Israeli cooperation would be necessary.) Most likely because the divide between the Fatah-led PA and Hamas, and the ability to portray both as undemocratic, serves Israeli's propaganda and other interests.
- jameshilliard 10mo ago
  > PA has to ask Israel to do anything of substance in the WB, because the WB is a mix of Israeli and PA controlled areas, with Israel controlling internal boundaries even between adjacent PA-controlled areas. It's much more than just that, the PA/Fatah is considered to be very weak and are extremely unpopular in the West Bank. If Israel didn't intervene Hamas would likely oust Fatah in the West Bank similar to what happened in Gaza. > the only reason is that Israel has refused to cooperate with all-Palestine elections negotiated and agreed to between Fatah (the party in control of the PA government) and Hamas Fatah knows they would lose an election in the West Bank to Hamas, this is something neither Israel or Fatah wants, hence no elections. > Most likely because the divide between the Fatah-led PA and Hamas, and the ability to portray both as undemocratic, serves Israeli's propaganda and other interests. They tried all-Palestine elections in 2006[0], that backfired spectacularly. Hamas was elected in what were generally considered free and fair elections, pretty hard to get a good election outcome if a majority or at least a plurality of the population wants to elect terrorists. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_e...
  - g8oz 10mo ago
    The Palestinians have a right to resist occupation under international law. In so far as the resistance is confined to military targets it's entirely lawful. The same sort of Westerner who immediately understands Ukrainian resistance struggles to understand the Palestinian perspective. Israeli settlers have murdered upwards of a thousand Palestinians in the West Bank since October 7th. They're never held accountable and have significant support from the right-wing members of the coalition government - cabinet minister Ben-Gvir was the lawyer for the settlers who burnt a Palestinian baby alive. Numerous Palestinian communities have been ethnically cleansed in a systematic campaign. The ultimate motivation for these actions is the ethnic supremacist cult of Zionism. The Palestinians could turn into a bunch of Scandinavian vegans tomorrow and it would not change a thing because it is the Zionist ideology that creates and maintains the conflict as part of its intrinsic nature. You have spammed this discussion with enough misleading "facts" to paint a picture of a throwback Bush Jr era American bloviator. Please give it a rest now.
Saline9515 10mo ago
The killings of civilians in the West Bank and the colonization process has nothing to do with the anecdotic presence of Hamas there. When fanatic religious colonizers point guns at Palestinians to prevent them from harvesting their olive trees, and then call the army as backup if things heat, what does Hamas has anything to do with the situation? By the way, Hamas is so bad that Netanyahu was actively helping funding it before the start of the war[1]. I guess that you should consider Netanyahu and your intelligence services as terrorists, then? Israel will spend 750M$ on advertising next year to clean its international image. I really wonder why, since they do only the right things! [1]https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/2020-02-24/ty-article/.premium/netanyahu-israel-mossad-chief-doha-qatar-continue-hamas-gaza-money-transfer/0000017f-ded8-d856-a37f-ffd88a960000 https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/2020-02-24/ty-artic...
- tguvot 10mo ago
  anecdotal presence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024%E2%80%932025_Palestinian_Authority_operation_in_Jenin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024%E2%80%932025_Palestinian_... As you probably missed news from decade ago, when PA and Hamas had one of their fights, PA stopped paying for gaza bills and salaries of 50k or so employees in gaza. International news had headlines that hundreds of thousands of people in gaza will starve to death because they have no money to buy food and that all services in gaza will collapse and it will be humanitarian catastrophe. So under pressure from international organizations and news Israel allowed qatari funds to be transferred to gaza in order to sustain pa employees and services and israel spent $750m on advertisement, because as you prove it, people don't know history beyond what is shown on latest tiktok ps. also jews in west bank are indigenous population that was ethnically cleansed by jordan in 1948. not "colonizers"
  - Saline9515 10mo ago
    Due to the zionist colonization, the West Bank is an archipelago now, and the Hamas is clearly not widespread there. Even then, it acts as a convenient strawman as the killings of civilians in the West Bank have nothing to do with the Hamas. But rather more about clashes with colonizers, who are backed-up in the illegal actions by the military. https://news.un.org/en/story/2025/02/1160066 https://news.un.org/en/story/2025/02/1160066 What you are saying about the Hamas funding is false, as the article states, Qatar has funded the Hamas with more than a billion dollars between 2012 and 2019 with Israel's approval. As your comments show, Hamas is a convenient opponent that allows Israel to justify its colonization. If it were to disappear it would be a serious problem. Jews in the West Bank are not indigenous, the religious zionists who come there are mainly orthodox jews from Europe racially white. And even then, it doesn't allow you to steal land. The Palestinians today are not collectively responsible for the actions of other Arab States after the war.

by tguvot 10mo ago

chimineycricket 10mo ago

I'm following your reasoning. Most West Bank residents are terrorist supporters and therefore they should be...killed?

jameshilliard 10mo ago
> I'm following your reasoning. Most West Bank residents are terrorist supporters and therefore they should be...killed? There probably needs to be some sort of serious de-radicalization process in the West Bank if there is to be any chance of ending the occupation without starting another war. Israel was taught that unilateral disengagement is not a viable strategy for peace, it didn't work in Gaza and it didn't work in Lebanon either with Hezbollah, peace in the region comes from bilateral peace agreements that are agreed to by both sides(i.e. like with Jordan/Egypt) and not from unilateral actions on the part of Israel(like the 2005 Gaza disengagement).
- chimineycricket 10mo ago
  Do you really believe Israel wants to stop occupying the West Bank? Just this month Israel killed 2 brothers (children), because they were identified as a threat. They continue to expand settlements, and they bomb during ceasefires. Can you give me any example of Israel really attempting peace? 2005 disengagement, but they have the levers to keep Gazans on the brink of death, by bottlenecking food, water, etc. Just because it's called disengagement, doesn't mean it really is. Don't accept their propaganda at face value, or anyone's, obviously. "Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas ... This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank."
  - jameshilliard 10mo ago
    > Do you really believe Israel wants to stop occupying the West Bank? In the past there has been some desire to do so, although that's faded quite a bit as it has become clear there is at the moment no real partner for peace on the Palestinian side. Palestinians need a leader who is truly interested in peace, sort of like Sadat was in Egypt who was critical to normalizing relations with Israel. Ultimately what many in Israel want is a real peace deal, but without a party on the other side that's going to be pretty difficult. > Just this month Israel killed 2 brothers (children), because they were identified as a threat. I'm not sure what specific incident this is in reference to but there are plenty of security threats in both the West Bank and Gaza, and it's pretty well known that Hamas uses child soldiers as well as human shields. > They continue to expand settlements I agree this is problematic, but terrorism is likely only going to encourage settlement expansion as settlements are seen by some in Israel as providing a security barrier. Israel is a country lacking in strategic depth[0] and the West Bank is especially problematic due to its proximity cities like Tel Aviv. After the previous failed unilateral disengagements in Gaza and Lebanon I think it's extremely unlikely for Israel to continue with that strategy. > they bomb during ceasefires Often in retaliation for ceasefire violations on the part of terrorists. > Can you give me any example of Israel really attempting peace? For example the 2000 Camp David Summit, where Israel made a number of offers that Palestinian leadership rejected without making any concrete counteroffers, this peace attempt immediately preceded the Second Intifada. Part of the reason Israel is often wary of peace attempts like this is due to Palestinian leadership not negotiating in good faith. > 2005 disengagement, but they have the levers to keep Gazans on the brink of death, by bottlenecking food, water, etc. What do you expect Israel to do when Hamas starts attacking Israel and stockpiling weapons. If Israel hadn't been attacked I think it would have been pretty unlikely for them to have blockaded Gaza. > Just because it's called disengagement, doesn't mean it really is. Don't accept their propaganda at face value, or anyone's, obviously. They evicted every Israeli from Gaza and gave it a try, clearly unilateral disengagement just doesn't work, and in the case of Lebanon with Hezbollah Israel had a similar issue and there wasn't even a blockade there. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_depth#In_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_depth#In_Israel
    - 10mo ago
- Saline9515 10mo ago
  Do you think that the religious israeli colonizers who steal the homes of Palestinians are normal people? How would you react if I opened your door, changed the lock, then pointed an AR-15 at you and told you to leave? Because it's what's happening right now in the West Bank.
  - tguvot 10mo ago
    could you please show me 10 example of this in last year in west bank ? or in last 5 years. real documented examples, not some articles about settlers stealing homes
    - Saline9515 10mo ago
      If you speak French (or ask an native french speaker "indigenous" to translate), you can have an ultra-orthodox Israeli explaining how to steal land in the West Bank. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rwmE9JDZbTE https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rwmE9JDZbTE Here images of a "house-jacking": https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5D5-0bKtwuY https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5D5-0bKtwuY
      - tguvot 10mo ago
        just for record, nobody in last few years was able to show 10 examples. or 5. but only few had enough integrity to admit that they can't find any despite it been "well known fact"
        Saline9515 10mo ago
        If in 30 seconds of google search I can find occurrences of it in the Israeli press, it's likely quite common, yeah. https://archive.is/5aHCb https://archive.is/5aHCb
        tguvot 10mo ago
        it doesn't track with "opened your door, changed the lock, then pointed an AR-15 at you and told you to leave". looks like they were searching for something stolen.

dragonwriter 10mo ago

> PA tried to clean hamas from those areas, got it ass kicked and asked Israel for help. PA has to ask Israel to do anything of substance in the WB, because the WB is a mix of Israeli and PA controlled areas, with Israel controlling internal boundaries even between adjacent PA-controlled areas. > Major reason why there are no elections in west bank, it's because current palestinian government knows that hamas will win No, the only reason is that Israel has refused to cooperate with all-Palestine elections negotiated and agreed to between Fatah (the party in control of the PA government) and Hamas, on multiple occasions (because Israel administers parts of the WB, and for other reasons, active Israeli cooperation would be necessary.) Most likely because the divide between the Fatah-led PA and Hamas, and the ability to portray both as undemocratic, serves Israeli's propaganda and other interests.

jameshilliard 10mo ago
> PA has to ask Israel to do anything of substance in the WB, because the WB is a mix of Israeli and PA controlled areas, with Israel controlling internal boundaries even between adjacent PA-controlled areas. It's much more than just that, the PA/Fatah is considered to be very weak and are extremely unpopular in the West Bank. If Israel didn't intervene Hamas would likely oust Fatah in the West Bank similar to what happened in Gaza. > the only reason is that Israel has refused to cooperate with all-Palestine elections negotiated and agreed to between Fatah (the party in control of the PA government) and Hamas Fatah knows they would lose an election in the West Bank to Hamas, this is something neither Israel or Fatah wants, hence no elections. > Most likely because the divide between the Fatah-led PA and Hamas, and the ability to portray both as undemocratic, serves Israeli's propaganda and other interests. They tried all-Palestine elections in 2006[0], that backfired spectacularly. Hamas was elected in what were generally considered free and fair elections, pretty hard to get a good election outcome if a majority or at least a plurality of the population wants to elect terrorists. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_e...
- g8oz 10mo ago
  The Palestinians have a right to resist occupation under international law. In so far as the resistance is confined to military targets it's entirely lawful. The same sort of Westerner who immediately understands Ukrainian resistance struggles to understand the Palestinian perspective. Israeli settlers have murdered upwards of a thousand Palestinians in the West Bank since October 7th. They're never held accountable and have significant support from the right-wing members of the coalition government - cabinet minister Ben-Gvir was the lawyer for the settlers who burnt a Palestinian baby alive. Numerous Palestinian communities have been ethnically cleansed in a systematic campaign. The ultimate motivation for these actions is the ethnic supremacist cult of Zionism. The Palestinians could turn into a bunch of Scandinavian vegans tomorrow and it would not change a thing because it is the Zionist ideology that creates and maintains the conflict as part of its intrinsic nature. You have spammed this discussion with enough misleading "facts" to paint a picture of a throwback Bush Jr era American bloviator. Please give it a rest now.

Saline9515 10mo ago

The killings of civilians in the West Bank and the colonization process has nothing to do with the anecdotic presence of Hamas there. When fanatic religious colonizers point guns at Palestinians to prevent them from harvesting their olive trees, and then call the army as backup if things heat, what does Hamas has anything to do with the situation? By the way, Hamas is so bad that Netanyahu was actively helping funding it before the start of the war[1]. I guess that you should consider Netanyahu and your intelligence services as terrorists, then? Israel will spend 750M$ on advertising next year to clean its international image. I really wonder why, since they do only the right things! [1]https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/2020-02-24/ty-article/.premium/netanyahu-israel-mossad-chief-doha-qatar-continue-hamas-gaza-money-transfer/0000017f-ded8-d856-a37f-ffd88a960000 https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/2020-02-24/ty-artic...

tguvot 10mo ago
anecdotal presence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024%E2%80%932025_Palestinian_Authority_operation_in_Jenin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024%E2%80%932025_Palestinian_... As you probably missed news from decade ago, when PA and Hamas had one of their fights, PA stopped paying for gaza bills and salaries of 50k or so employees in gaza. International news had headlines that hundreds of thousands of people in gaza will starve to death because they have no money to buy food and that all services in gaza will collapse and it will be humanitarian catastrophe. So under pressure from international organizations and news Israel allowed qatari funds to be transferred to gaza in order to sustain pa employees and services and israel spent $750m on advertisement, because as you prove it, people don't know history beyond what is shown on latest tiktok ps. also jews in west bank are indigenous population that was ethnically cleansed by jordan in 1948. not "colonizers"
- Saline9515 10mo ago
  Due to the zionist colonization, the West Bank is an archipelago now, and the Hamas is clearly not widespread there. Even then, it acts as a convenient strawman as the killings of civilians in the West Bank have nothing to do with the Hamas. But rather more about clashes with colonizers, who are backed-up in the illegal actions by the military. https://news.un.org/en/story/2025/02/1160066 https://news.un.org/en/story/2025/02/1160066 What you are saying about the Hamas funding is false, as the article states, Qatar has funded the Hamas with more than a billion dollars between 2012 and 2019 with Israel's approval. As your comments show, Hamas is a convenient opponent that allows Israel to justify its colonization. If it were to disappear it would be a serious problem. Jews in the West Bank are not indigenous, the religious zionists who come there are mainly orthodox jews from Europe racially white. And even then, it doesn't allow you to steal land. The Palestinians today are not collectively responsible for the actions of other Arab States after the war.