5 ms·

Finally, I hope that trend catches on. God knows how many messages are missed thanks to toasts.

Groxx 10mo ago
>Toasts pose significant accessibility concerns and are not recommended for use. yeah. OBVIOUSLY. good fucking riddance. they wouldn't be half as bad if they always came with a notification center for seeing the ones you missed... but the other half is still incredibly bad and isn't worth using at all.
- Muromec 10mo ago
  >yeah. OBVIOUSLY. good fucking riddance. Are they really? Isn't it pretty normal "role status aria something something polite" thingy to announce feedback to user?
  - JoshTriplett 10mo ago
    Accessibility is more than just screen readers. Toasts are also not accessible for folks with low vision, low peripheral vision, etc. And the time-based disappearance is unpleasant for many people, as one of many examples of "accessibility improvements are also often usability improvements". A message that you have to explicitly dismiss, and that's stored in a "message history" somewhere, is much more accessible and usable.
    - herpdyderp 10mo ago
      Accessibility doesn't even need to be related to any disability or unusual user requirement. A user-hostile website can be inaccessible even to users with perfect visual and motor functions.
    - d3Xt3r 10mo ago
      That depends on the size of the toast, appearance and frequency. We (an MSP) used a Windows toast notification[1] to encourage people initiate the Win10 > Win11 upgrade at their own convenient time (before it gets forced down on them) - and we got a pretty high uptake. The overall feedback from both the project team and users were good: the toast was unmissable, the text explanation was clear, and the big banner image was eye catching. https://www.imab.dk/windows-10-toast-notification-script/ https://www.imab.dk/windows-10-toast-notification-script/
      - Groxx 10mo ago
        If it has all of: a "big banner image", buttons that are required to interact or dismiss, doesn't go away on its own after only a couple seconds, and might(?) also exist in the notification center I think it's pretty safe to label that "definitely not a toast". That's just a notification, or maybe a "non-modal alert". Toasts are distinct from those by being brief and ephemeral.
        d3Xt3r 10mo ago
        It is technically a toast, according to Microsoft. If you check the link in my previous comment, the script is using the Windows Runtime Toast Notification API, specifically the Windows.UI.Notifications namespace and the ToastGeneric XML toast template. You can see the API reference here: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/uwp/api/windows.ui.notifications.toastnotifier?view=winrt-26100 https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/uwp/api/windows.ui.notific...
    - pxc 10mo ago
      > Toasts are also not accessible for folks with low vision To make this a little more concrete with one example: if you are using fullscreen magnification, odds are toasts will literally never appear on your monitor. By the time you pan over to their little corner of the screen (if you ever do), the toast will be long gone.
      - mnhnthrow34 10mo ago
        Can confirm. I zoom and pan on lots of websites in my daily browsing and would have no idea if toasts are popping in and out. I'll notice system level toasts though.
    - Jtsummers 10mo ago
      They also often show up in bad locations, requiring you to dismiss them explicitly so you can continue using other UI elements.
      - licorices 10mo ago
        This is sometimes intentional. Some design it that way to ensure that if they are going to do a certain action, that they have seen the toast. Obviously far from being the case all the time, but it happens that it is intentional sometimes.
        Griffinsauce 10mo ago
        That would make it an Alert or Dialog masquerading as a toast, no?
    - Muromec 10mo ago
      Okay you are right, timer-adjustable disappearance and history is important too and if it's local to where user's fields of view it's better than a toast every time of the day.
  - madeofpalk 10mo ago
    There's no such thing as accessibility. Accessibility is just usability. Toasts have poor usability because its easy to miss them. This makes them bad for everyone, regardless of screen reader.
    - rileymat2 10mo ago
      This is not strictly true some accessibility choices can harm usability for those that don’t need that affordance, if it is not configurable.
yencabulator 10mo ago
My absolute favorite is toasts that stay on screen just long enough for me to realize there was an "Undo" button in the toast. What action did I just accidentally perform and why can't I undo it after the 0.3 second toast disappears?

Groxx 10mo ago

>Toasts pose significant accessibility concerns and are not recommended for use. yeah. OBVIOUSLY. good fucking riddance. they wouldn't be half as bad if they always came with a notification center for seeing the ones you missed... but the other half is still incredibly bad and isn't worth using at all.

Muromec 10mo ago
>yeah. OBVIOUSLY. good fucking riddance. Are they really? Isn't it pretty normal "role status aria something something polite" thingy to announce feedback to user?
- JoshTriplett 10mo ago
  Accessibility is more than just screen readers. Toasts are also not accessible for folks with low vision, low peripheral vision, etc. And the time-based disappearance is unpleasant for many people, as one of many examples of "accessibility improvements are also often usability improvements". A message that you have to explicitly dismiss, and that's stored in a "message history" somewhere, is much more accessible and usable.
  - herpdyderp 10mo ago
    Accessibility doesn't even need to be related to any disability or unusual user requirement. A user-hostile website can be inaccessible even to users with perfect visual and motor functions.
  - d3Xt3r 10mo ago
    That depends on the size of the toast, appearance and frequency. We (an MSP) used a Windows toast notification[1] to encourage people initiate the Win10 > Win11 upgrade at their own convenient time (before it gets forced down on them) - and we got a pretty high uptake. The overall feedback from both the project team and users were good: the toast was unmissable, the text explanation was clear, and the big banner image was eye catching. https://www.imab.dk/windows-10-toast-notification-script/ https://www.imab.dk/windows-10-toast-notification-script/
    - Groxx 10mo ago
      If it has all of: a "big banner image", buttons that are required to interact or dismiss, doesn't go away on its own after only a couple seconds, and might(?) also exist in the notification center I think it's pretty safe to label that "definitely not a toast". That's just a notification, or maybe a "non-modal alert". Toasts are distinct from those by being brief and ephemeral.
      - d3Xt3r 10mo ago
        It is technically a toast, according to Microsoft. If you check the link in my previous comment, the script is using the Windows Runtime Toast Notification API, specifically the Windows.UI.Notifications namespace and the ToastGeneric XML toast template. You can see the API reference here: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/uwp/api/windows.ui.notifications.toastnotifier?view=winrt-26100 https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/uwp/api/windows.ui.notific...
  - pxc 10mo ago
    > Toasts are also not accessible for folks with low vision To make this a little more concrete with one example: if you are using fullscreen magnification, odds are toasts will literally never appear on your monitor. By the time you pan over to their little corner of the screen (if you ever do), the toast will be long gone.
    - mnhnthrow34 10mo ago
      Can confirm. I zoom and pan on lots of websites in my daily browsing and would have no idea if toasts are popping in and out. I'll notice system level toasts though.
  - Jtsummers 10mo ago
    They also often show up in bad locations, requiring you to dismiss them explicitly so you can continue using other UI elements.
    - licorices 10mo ago
      This is sometimes intentional. Some design it that way to ensure that if they are going to do a certain action, that they have seen the toast. Obviously far from being the case all the time, but it happens that it is intentional sometimes.
      - Griffinsauce 10mo ago
        That would make it an Alert or Dialog masquerading as a toast, no?
  - Muromec 10mo ago
    Okay you are right, timer-adjustable disappearance and history is important too and if it's local to where user's fields of view it's better than a toast every time of the day.
- madeofpalk 10mo ago
  There's no such thing as accessibility. Accessibility is just usability. Toasts have poor usability because its easy to miss them. This makes them bad for everyone, regardless of screen reader.
  - rileymat2 10mo ago
    This is not strictly true some accessibility choices can harm usability for those that don’t need that affordance, if it is not configurable.

yencabulator 10mo ago

My absolute favorite is toasts that stay on screen just long enough for me to realize there was an "Undo" button in the toast. What action did I just accidentally perform and why can't I undo it after the 0.3 second toast disappears?