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Real professionals don't get to use the Nuremberg defence. A pharmacist cannot blindly give an absurd prescription, no matter what the doctor orders. A nurse is

Real professionals don't get to use the Nuremberg defence. A pharmacist cannot blindly give an absurd prescription, no matter what the doctor orders. A nurse is expected to double check dosages. An electrician can't just short circuit a fuse that keeps breaking just because you tell them to do it. These professionals can be held criminally liable if they don't follow regulations and good practice. As an industry we need to grow up. The stuff we do has a real effect on people's lives. It's not just fun and games any more. Other industries have things like professional registers and regulators. We need to accept that being a software engineer is a powerful and privileged position and with that has to come responsibility. Privilege without responsibility is an injustice. As for how to actually implement this I would start with ethics and safety being considered a primary concern in software engineering. Computer science is academic, but if you want to be software engineer you need to demonstrate some understanding of ethics and safety. I'm talking certifications, professional bodies and registers etc. Things other professions have had for decades. The free market approach seems lovely in practice. Do you know what the definition of a free market is? Part of it is that consumers have perfect knowledge. That is, they know everything they need to be able to make the correct decision. How many people do you know with perfect knowledge of anything? You've already identified the other problem which is a free market requires low barriers to entry, which fridges and electronics do not. A free market is a theoretical concept. It's no more real than my hypothetical regulatory system.

chickensong 11mo ago
I agree the industry needs to grow up. The YOLO move fast, what tests, what security, sucks. I'm having a hard time seeing your vision of individually licensed professionals though. I hear what you're saying, but it seems totally unrealistic IMO. Your comparisons (pharmacist, nurse, electrician) are all part of specific regulated industries, in roles where the individual's actions can mean life or death. Software engineers, and the greater IT domain, cover an incredibly wide area, reaching into most other industries. Most of these people have very little chance of directly influencing a life or death situation. Say you take a subset of software folks, create a regulated standard for licensing your real professionals, they get ethics and safety training, take tests, get certs, etc.. They're hopefully good, quality engineers, perhaps sought after by regulated industries. How are those individuals going to stop ads in your fridge? It's not their call. A business dude at Samsung or whoever is going to pitch the latest invasive ad idea with projected revenue, execs will smell profit and direct engineering to implement. Unless there's regulation of the home appliance industry or the advertising industry, Samsung won't give a shit about hiring your expensive licensed engineers for the job. I don't know what you're talking about regarding perfect consumer knowledge in a free market. To my understanding, a free market is just dynamic pricing based on supply and demand and competition between sellers, but I'm not particularly educated in economics. Regardless, you don't need perfect knowledge to be informed or make a purchasing decision. I replied to your original post because it's common sentiment I see often, where outrage sparks an appeal to some authority to fix things, which I find frustrating because it's often not actionable or realistic. I applaud the spirit of your call to the community to do better, but I don't agree with your specifics and the vague wish for consequences from above. Our views aren't completely incompatible though, you're angry, I'm angry, and we're talking about it which is a win in my book. I'm promoting a different type of grassroots resistance, but by all means fight the fight to enact your vision of regulation somehow.

chickensong 11mo ago

I agree the industry needs to grow up. The YOLO move fast, what tests, what security, sucks. I'm having a hard time seeing your vision of individually licensed professionals though. I hear what you're saying, but it seems totally unrealistic IMO. Your comparisons (pharmacist, nurse, electrician) are all part of specific regulated industries, in roles where the individual's actions can mean life or death. Software engineers, and the greater IT domain, cover an incredibly wide area, reaching into most other industries. Most of these people have very little chance of directly influencing a life or death situation. Say you take a subset of software folks, create a regulated standard for licensing your real professionals, they get ethics and safety training, take tests, get certs, etc.. They're hopefully good, quality engineers, perhaps sought after by regulated industries. How are those individuals going to stop ads in your fridge? It's not their call. A business dude at Samsung or whoever is going to pitch the latest invasive ad idea with projected revenue, execs will smell profit and direct engineering to implement. Unless there's regulation of the home appliance industry or the advertising industry, Samsung won't give a shit about hiring your expensive licensed engineers for the job. I don't know what you're talking about regarding perfect consumer knowledge in a free market. To my understanding, a free market is just dynamic pricing based on supply and demand and competition between sellers, but I'm not particularly educated in economics. Regardless, you don't need perfect knowledge to be informed or make a purchasing decision. I replied to your original post because it's common sentiment I see often, where outrage sparks an appeal to some authority to fix things, which I find frustrating because it's often not actionable or realistic. I applaud the spirit of your call to the community to do better, but I don't agree with your specifics and the vague wish for consequences from above. Our views aren't completely incompatible though, you're angry, I'm angry, and we're talking about it which is a win in my book. I'm promoting a different type of grassroots resistance, but by all means fight the fight to enact your vision of regulation somehow.