3 ms·

Don't use the term "Dark Ages". The article does not. Use "early European medieval period". Repeating it perpetuates the myth. If you must use it, say "European

by eesmith 10mo ago

Don't use the term "Dark Ages". The article does not. Use "early European medieval period". Repeating it perpetuates the myth. If you must use it, say "European Dark Ages", and be aware that you are still perpetrating a false anti-religion narrative. > if in the future scholars were dismissing Newton's novel contributions to astronomy because his physics model is not that accurate compared to Einstein's. Newton's came first. Einstein improved on Newton. The example you point to came after the Ptolemaic system and made worse predictions. Plus, there are no compounding rotations of homocentric spheres. And there were other heliocentric models. > of western biased scholars making their scientist/engineers/technologist contributions even more significant Sure. And you didn't mention ancient Indian contributions to tides either, like the one I quoted from Wikipedia. I see from your posting history that you posted https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37184786 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37184786, with someone else posting a comment linking to https://thonyc.wordpress.com/2014/10/03/the-unfortunate-backlash-in-the-historiography-of-islamic-science/ https://thonyc.wordpress.com/2014/10/03/the-unfortunate-back... . Quoting from it: "In earlier versions of this narrative, its European propagators claimed that the Islamic scholars who appropriated Greek knowledge in the eighth-century and then passed it back to their European successors, beginning in the twelfth-century, only conserved that knowledge, effectively doing nothing with it and not increasing it. ... a later generation of historians of science began to research the work of those Islamic scholars, reading, transcribing, translating and analysing their work and showing that they had in fact made substantial contributions to many areas of science and mathematics, contributions that had flowed into modern European science along with the earlier Greek, Babylonian and Egyptian contributions ... Unfortunately the hagiographic, amateur, wannabe pop historians of science now entered the field keen to atone for the sins of the earlier Eurocentric historical narrative and began to exaggerate the achievements of the Islamic scholars to show how superior they were to the puny Europeans who stole their ideas, like the colonial bullies who stole their lands." You believe I am solidly in the first camp, and you in the second. I believe your comments strongly support my belief that you belong in the third category - a part of the forest you should be aware of because that comment was directed to you. If I were in the first camp then it should be very easy to refute me by pointing to concrete examples, but your examples fall apart under simple scrutiny, often even by reading the references you give. If your knowledge were deep, you never would have written "Romans however, had a very limited exposure to ocean tides" as if that were meaningful - or you would have explained why I was wrong, rather than ignoring the problem. Even now, you write "In research and scholarship this mentallity is frowned upon and illegal." Plagiarism is NOT illegal per se. Your own [1] says "Plagiarism and copyright infringement functionally overlap, depending on the copyright law protection in force, but they are not equivalent concepts,[19] and although many types of plagiarism may not meet the legal requirements in copyright law as adjudicated by courts, they still constitute the passing-off of another's work as one's own, and thus plagiarism. " Nor is it always plagiarism to not mention the prior researchers who did the work before you. That's actually quite common, because 1) finding previous work can be hard, and 2) people don't like digging into the literature. If you don't know about previous work then that's called independent re-discovery, not plagiarism. Ramanujan rediscovered known theorems. He did not plagiarize them.

teleforce 10mo ago
I'm not sure why you keep replying to my post since I believe you understand my original point that most of these historical article were jumping straight from old Greek to Renaissance era. > Don't use the term "Dark Ages". The article does not. Use "early European medieval period". Repeating it perpetuates the myth. If you must use it, say "European Dark Ages", and be aware that you are still perpetrating a false anti-religion narrative. The knowledge lineage need to to be taken into account, it's not my job to do that it's the author of the article responsibility, I just pointing the European and western biased here. The biased even more profound in the medical history literature whether they mentioned "dark ages" or not. >Newton's came first. Einstein improved on Newton Newton came earlier then Einstein improved on Newton, fixed that for you. Before Newton there were many other Arabic and muslim scholars working on the physics of planetary problems, or even Indian and Chinese scholars, but I think you get my point. > "Romans however, had a very limited exposure to ocean tides" as if that were meaningful - or you would have explained why I was wrong, rather than ignoring the problem. Necessity is the mother of invention. For example now we have western and European based wireless modulation and standards including Wi-Fi by IEEE and 5G by 3GPP that cannot work reliably with tropical region with lush trees, foliage and heavy rain (in certain spectrum). For satellite communication on certain popular wireless spectrum that means you don't get the signal most of the time during the day. Where in most European countries rain is exotic with minimum rain year around but in tropical countries there's frequent rain, and during rainy season like now it rain practically everyday. Currently I'm working on the improvement of the wireless modulation that can work much better in this environment due to the western researchers do not experiencing much of this challenging and harsh propagation environment of the tropical trees/rain/etc. Thus they can sympathized but not empathized on the situation. There's no urgent need for them to improve on the situation unlike us although now we're in the Wi-Fi 7 going to 8, and 5G going to 6G for cellular. However back to the article, the European scholars later found ocean tides is something that need to be calculated, analyzed and predicted due to their colonization effort around the world during the Renaissance time, hence the need to explore and research them further.
- eesmith 10mo ago
  > I'm not sure why you keep replying to my post Because I want to encourage you to read your sources in more detail. Good scholarship is important, and yet so very hard. And because I want to know new things, and this exchange has lead to some fruitful readings for me. > it's the author of the article responsibility You haven't pointed out what's missing from the article that would be relevant to the reader. Rather, what you have pointed out hasn't been correct, or hasn't been relevant. > working on the physics of planetary problems Sure. Absolutely. And how would mentioning more of them improve the article? The tides are not caused by the heat of the moon. The tides are not caused by astrological forces. The tides are not caused by undersea monsters. The moon's orbit is not described by a sphere. Listing tidbits about all the people who worked on tides is far outside the scope of this article. > the European scholars later found ocean tides is something that need to be calculated, analyzed and predicted due to their colonization effort around the world during the Renaissance time, hence the need to explore and research them further. Sure. And they built on a long history of earlier research in understanding tides. Like, Pliny described how the tides are influenced by both the Sun and the Moon - https://archive.org/details/naturalhistoryof01plinuoft/page/124/mode/2up?q=tides https://archive.org/details/naturalhistoryof01plinuoft/page/... - something I presume that every educated scholar of the Golden Era would have known about. Pliny wrote: "Much has been said about the nature of waters ; but the most wonderful circumstance is the alternate flowing and ebbing of the tides, which exists, indeed, under various forms, but is caused by the sun and the moon. ... There is a difference in the tides, depending on the moon, of a complicated nature, and, first, as to the period of seven days. For the tides are of moderate height from the new moon to the first quarter ; from this time they increase, and are the highest at the full: they then decrease. On the seventh day they are equal to what they were at the first ... After an interval of eight years, and the hundredth revolution of the moon, the periods and the heights of the tides return into the same order as at first" Not bad for someone from the Mediterranean .. except, wait! Not only would he have read about tides, he was the procurator of Hispania Tarraconensis, which has an Atlantic coastline, and may have been the procurator of Gallia Belgica, also on the Atlantic. Or we can read about China from Needham, at https://archive.org/details/cftri.9621sciencecivilisat0000jose/page/490/mode/2up?q=tides https://archive.org/details/cftri.9621sciencecivilisat0000jo... "The next advances were made in the Thang. Tou Shu-Mêng, about +770, who wrote the Hai Thao Chih (or Hai Chiao Chih) (On the Tides), seems to have been one of the first to deal with the lunar theory of the tides with any scientific detail. When the moon is passing through hsi-mu and ta-liang, he said, the water rises higher. ... In +850 came a short tractate which was to be famous, Lu Chao’s Hat Chhao Fu (Essay on the Tides). From this we know that regular tide tables (thao chih) were already in use, and that the association of neaps with the moon’s quarters was fully accepted." Tides calculated, analyzed, and predicted long before Europe's greedy immoral ventures. Needham suggests the necessity was even greater in China because "The coasts of China, however, have tides of considerable range, for example, about twelve feet in spring off the mouth of the Yangtze. Moreover, China possessed one of the only two great tidal bores or eagres in the world, that on the Chhien-Thang River near Hangchow". If you really believe your necessity hypothesis, then you should stress Chinese tidal studies, not Muslim/Arabic ones. Still, it's all interconnected. Europeans needed a better way to handle bookkeeping. Fibbonacci's Liber Abaci introduced the Indo–Arabic numeral system to Europe. The resulting improved of banking and accounting abilities would later help fund Europe's exploitative efforts. China developed gunpowder. European researchers improved on it both for internal wars and their wars of subjugation. The Needham Question - yes, the very same Needham - asks and tries to answer the question of why modern science did not develop in Chinese or Indian civilization (or during the Muslim Golden Age), but only in later Europe.

by eesmith 10mo ago

teleforce 10mo ago

I'm not sure why you keep replying to my post since I believe you understand my original point that most of these historical article were jumping straight from old Greek to Renaissance era. > Don't use the term "Dark Ages". The article does not. Use "early European medieval period". Repeating it perpetuates the myth. If you must use it, say "European Dark Ages", and be aware that you are still perpetrating a false anti-religion narrative. The knowledge lineage need to to be taken into account, it's not my job to do that it's the author of the article responsibility, I just pointing the European and western biased here. The biased even more profound in the medical history literature whether they mentioned "dark ages" or not. >Newton's came first. Einstein improved on Newton Newton came earlier then Einstein improved on Newton, fixed that for you. Before Newton there were many other Arabic and muslim scholars working on the physics of planetary problems, or even Indian and Chinese scholars, but I think you get my point. > "Romans however, had a very limited exposure to ocean tides" as if that were meaningful - or you would have explained why I was wrong, rather than ignoring the problem. Necessity is the mother of invention. For example now we have western and European based wireless modulation and standards including Wi-Fi by IEEE and 5G by 3GPP that cannot work reliably with tropical region with lush trees, foliage and heavy rain (in certain spectrum). For satellite communication on certain popular wireless spectrum that means you don't get the signal most of the time during the day. Where in most European countries rain is exotic with minimum rain year around but in tropical countries there's frequent rain, and during rainy season like now it rain practically everyday. Currently I'm working on the improvement of the wireless modulation that can work much better in this environment due to the western researchers do not experiencing much of this challenging and harsh propagation environment of the tropical trees/rain/etc. Thus they can sympathized but not empathized on the situation. There's no urgent need for them to improve on the situation unlike us although now we're in the Wi-Fi 7 going to 8, and 5G going to 6G for cellular. However back to the article, the European scholars later found ocean tides is something that need to be calculated, analyzed and predicted due to their colonization effort around the world during the Renaissance time, hence the need to explore and research them further.

eesmith 10mo ago
> I'm not sure why you keep replying to my post Because I want to encourage you to read your sources in more detail. Good scholarship is important, and yet so very hard. And because I want to know new things, and this exchange has lead to some fruitful readings for me. > it's the author of the article responsibility You haven't pointed out what's missing from the article that would be relevant to the reader. Rather, what you have pointed out hasn't been correct, or hasn't been relevant. > working on the physics of planetary problems Sure. Absolutely. And how would mentioning more of them improve the article? The tides are not caused by the heat of the moon. The tides are not caused by astrological forces. The tides are not caused by undersea monsters. The moon's orbit is not described by a sphere. Listing tidbits about all the people who worked on tides is far outside the scope of this article. > the European scholars later found ocean tides is something that need to be calculated, analyzed and predicted due to their colonization effort around the world during the Renaissance time, hence the need to explore and research them further. Sure. And they built on a long history of earlier research in understanding tides. Like, Pliny described how the tides are influenced by both the Sun and the Moon - https://archive.org/details/naturalhistoryof01plinuoft/page/124/mode/2up?q=tides https://archive.org/details/naturalhistoryof01plinuoft/page/... - something I presume that every educated scholar of the Golden Era would have known about. Pliny wrote: "Much has been said about the nature of waters ; but the most wonderful circumstance is the alternate flowing and ebbing of the tides, which exists, indeed, under various forms, but is caused by the sun and the moon. ... There is a difference in the tides, depending on the moon, of a complicated nature, and, first, as to the period of seven days. For the tides are of moderate height from the new moon to the first quarter ; from this time they increase, and are the highest at the full: they then decrease. On the seventh day they are equal to what they were at the first ... After an interval of eight years, and the hundredth revolution of the moon, the periods and the heights of the tides return into the same order as at first" Not bad for someone from the Mediterranean .. except, wait! Not only would he have read about tides, he was the procurator of Hispania Tarraconensis, which has an Atlantic coastline, and may have been the procurator of Gallia Belgica, also on the Atlantic. Or we can read about China from Needham, at https://archive.org/details/cftri.9621sciencecivilisat0000jose/page/490/mode/2up?q=tides https://archive.org/details/cftri.9621sciencecivilisat0000jo... "The next advances were made in the Thang. Tou Shu-Mêng, about +770, who wrote the Hai Thao Chih (or Hai Chiao Chih) (On the Tides), seems to have been one of the first to deal with the lunar theory of the tides with any scientific detail. When the moon is passing through hsi-mu and ta-liang, he said, the water rises higher. ... In +850 came a short tractate which was to be famous, Lu Chao’s Hat Chhao Fu (Essay on the Tides). From this we know that regular tide tables (thao chih) were already in use, and that the association of neaps with the moon’s quarters was fully accepted." Tides calculated, analyzed, and predicted long before Europe's greedy immoral ventures. Needham suggests the necessity was even greater in China because "The coasts of China, however, have tides of considerable range, for example, about twelve feet in spring off the mouth of the Yangtze. Moreover, China possessed one of the only two great tidal bores or eagres in the world, that on the Chhien-Thang River near Hangchow". If you really believe your necessity hypothesis, then you should stress Chinese tidal studies, not Muslim/Arabic ones. Still, it's all interconnected. Europeans needed a better way to handle bookkeeping. Fibbonacci's Liber Abaci introduced the Indo–Arabic numeral system to Europe. The resulting improved of banking and accounting abilities would later help fund Europe's exploitative efforts. China developed gunpowder. European researchers improved on it both for internal wars and their wars of subjugation. The Needham Question - yes, the very same Needham - asks and tries to answer the question of why modern science did not develop in Chinese or Indian civilization (or during the Muslim Golden Age), but only in later Europe.