8 ms·

Employees of kixeye accused of racist remarks fired

61 points by justinhj 14y ago

w1ntermute 14y ago
This was a very disturbing incident, and I can only hope that it was an isolated incident and not indicative of a larger trend in the startup industry. The demographics are skewed enough as it is when it comes to this industry.
- Jare 14y ago
  Here's hoping the quick, decisive and very public action by management sends a clear signal.
  - flyinglizard 14y ago
    Here's hoping that all those who were involved were given due process and handled fairly with the matter being thoroughly investigated by management, rather than being thoughtlessly fired to appease the masses or to be cannon fodder in the lawsuit brought on against kixeye. This is completely regardless of the case at hand, mind. I expect companies to act responsibly towards all employees.
    - phene 14y ago
      Honestly, it sounds like the latter.
    - csomar 14y ago
      There are no signs that the CEO did fire them thoughtlessly. And they also have the right to defend themselves either publicly or in court.
  - mturmon 14y ago
    If the practice was as widespread as it seemed to be, and management was aware of it but did not stop it, then the resulting lawsuits could destroy the company. Company management has an affirmative requirement to stop workplace harassment under California law. Race and sexual preference are both protected categories under California law. I was amazed at the stupidity of the management (assuming the post was factual).
- chaostheory 14y ago
  I don't feel that this is a recurring issue in the startup industry. However based on my past work experience, this is definitely not an isolated incident for the video game industry. The only difference between different companies is how they handle it when it arises. I do remember when working at one of the big three video game publishers: 1) HR and managers would repeatedly educate both new workers and existing employees on both racial discrimination and sexual harassment on a semi-quarterly basis. 2) HR would give anonymous surveys regarding workplace environment every quarter. Regarding the last item, at my last stint at a gaming company; a co-worker reported a case of racial discrimination and it was handled promptly and professionally. There was no time for anyone to blog about the subject. I'm going to agree with other people, HR wasn't doing their job effectively.
  - waterlesscloud 14y ago
    I wonder how much of that is due to the racist, sexist, and anti-gay speech that's endemic to online gaming? Do people take that as setting the tone for the industry? Actually, when I think about it, it seems to me that I see less such speech in online games than I did even just a couple of years ago. Maybe I'm just playing different games from that crowd now.
    - chaostheory 14y ago
      > Do people take that as setting the tone for the industry? It's just the same juvenile idiots both online and in the office. Videogame companies tend to attract both the most talented engineers as well as a lot of juvenile idiots. A good HR dept helps mitigate these problems. A video game company without one is either really small or really inexperienced and new.
  - wonderzombie 14y ago
    How often and how likely are you, yourself, likely to be a target of racist language? And how keyed into the more subtle forms of racism are you? I mean these as serious questions, not rhetorically. The thing is, you have to be really careful about selection bias and confirmation bias, here. This example happened to be one of the most egregious examples, the easiest to spot. A lot of the more subtle cues will fly right over your head, especially since a lot of behavior with racist over- or undertones is not something white people are exposed to or experience. (I include myself in this statement.) Granted, I am assuming you are white, chiefly based on the demographics of HN and the tech community in general.
aaronbrethorst 14y ago
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/jh72ja http://www.twitlonger.com/show/jh72ja What are we doing to make sure this never happens again in the future? Well, even before this incident, we hired a VP of HR who has implemented a sensitivity training program for all employees. Which was evidently ineffective.
- dllthomas 14y ago
  The hiring clearly took place before the incident; whether the training took place before the incident is ambiguous. If it did, it was clearly ineffective. If not, then we have no evidence one way or the other as to its effectiveness.
  - aaronbrethorst 14y ago
    Excellent point on the ambiguity of it.
- waterlesscloud 14y ago
  The point of such training is to make it less legally risky to fire people for being insensitive. Looks like it was effective.
  - arohner 14y ago
    Stupid question: It's already illegal to discriminate and harass on the basis of race. Why do you need a training program to make it less risky to fire people over it?
    - MartinCron 14y ago
      I think it's less risky because it sends a clear signal to employees that if they're fired for being racist assholes, they don't have any real grounds for to sue for unlawful termination. Even groundless unlawful termination lawsuits are a pain in the ass to deal with. It's better to discourage them than to litigate them.
jacalata 14y ago
"We don’t even tolerate people brining up concerns of racism here." Wow. I assume that somewhere along the line, that guy misunderstood 'zero tolerance of racism'.
- csomar 14y ago
  Nope, but you don't want topics where the conversation can get heated like politics or racism.
  - jacalata 14y ago
    I'm confused: are you the guy being quoted?
mynameishere 14y ago
Everyone is trying his best to be PC, but the real takeaway is that you have to be careful not to hire some ultra-sensitive pantywaist thug who publicly cries "racist" at every shitty joke, giving your company weeks of terrible PR to clean up. “Hey he’s dressed like Run DMC, does he know how to rap?” Oh, the poor darling. Let's ruin a bunch of people's livelihoods over this apparently wicked comment.
- indy 14y ago
  you sound racist
  - sergiotapia 14y ago
    As a Latino minority, promptly go fuck yourself. You and the PC crowd are the scourge against "getting shit done". Go back to /r/shitredditsays you twat. If you're offended by things like this you are either: a) Extremely sheltered. b) A racist yourself.
    - coderdude 14y ago
      This place is ridiculous. They're calling him racist, a troll, coward, little boy? These people are being upvoted for this? It's pathetic and embarrassing to be lumped in with this crowd. You're being downvoted for speaking the truth. They're not downvoting you because you called someone racist or sheltered, at least you know that. It can't be because you told him to go fuck himself since being civil obviously isn't something they care about either.
    - npc 14y ago
      how is it necessary to make racist comments in order to "get shit done"? will your production systems all crash if you don't make a minimum of 5 jokes about nappy hair and malt liquor a day? have you encountered a nasty bug in rails that can only be fixed by exposing it to clips of Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's?
      - 14y ago
columbo 14y ago
I'm one of the people who posted on the previous thread that didn't agree with the tone/method of the original blog post. Not that it matters in the slightest what I think. However, I'm glad it turned out this way.
- flyinglizard 14y ago
  I did not like it either. I thought it was laid with racist overtones and stereotypes. I also thought that it is peculiar that someone would choose to introduce themselves as a "poor black queer" instead of bringing forth their personality or skills or ideas. Newsflash: if you are interesting or do cool stuff I don't give a fuck about your skin tone or sexual preference.
  - drivebyacct2 14y ago
    ... That was rather the point. >if you are interesting or do cool stuff I don't give a fuck about your skin tone And I'm guessing you're white and straight and thus have not spent the amount of timing thinking about others as I and other people have. We're not worried about you. We're worried about people like these employees who DO give "a fuck" about skin tone or sexual preference. It's funny that you condemn him for probably jokingly and self-deprecatingly calling himself a "poor black queer", yet that's what he was reduced to when you're treated as such day in and day out.
    - flyinglizard 14y ago
      To me it sounded like someone with a rooted "versus" mentality that defines themselves using their externality and sexual preference because, well, its just easier. You are not wrong about me, but I have plenty of gay friends in the workplace, and being talented they don't define themselves through their orientation.
      - wonderzombie 14y ago
        It's a hell of a lot easier not to have a "versus" mentality when you are in a privileged position. Conversely, when everyone around you can instantly see that you are different, and when you're reminded daily that you are different by mainstream culture, you'd probably have a different attitude. You're visibly, repeatedly, and viscerally reminded that you are Different. I don't know what that's like, but it's something this particular fellow has to live with every moment of his life. That's going to have an impact on your attitude, and I'm willing to cut the guy more than a little slack. "Can't we all get along" is a luxury cis, straight, white males have, in no small part because a lot of mainstream American culture is created by and for that set of categories.
codemac 14y ago
> While many in San Francisco have begun to use the term "post racist" as a matter-fact-statement to describe the relatively inclusive work environment, the difference between the mostly affluent white community on the peninsula and the impoverished Oakland across the bay is impossible to miss. What? Who says that? The only time I've heard the phrase "post racist" is either The Colbert Report, or people being sarcastic in reference to something really racist. It's because of places like Oakland that no one I know in San Francisco believes on any level we live in a "post racial America". That little sentence is really offensive to me and hopefully others who are aware of the severe and drastic gender and racial inequalities in the tech industry. Until I see ~10% of tech workforces being African American, I'm not even going to begin to think about "post racial" anything.
- stretchwithme 14y ago
  I think things are more complicated than statistics can properly capture. Its possible to start a software business with very little resources. And there are people of all races that have done so. Do the users know what race of people are developing their software? Do they care? That does not mean that some groups are not more wary of doing things due to past racism and the possibility of encountering it more when they go outside their comfort zone. Many, many people in all groups do what is expected over many other values. I also think there are just as many people who will go out of their way to help and do business with someone different as will hold it against them. Frankly, for many skills, if you're a coding demon, they will hire you. I doubt you will find anyone in any group with significant talent that isn't turning away work. There are other factors as well. Many people in some communities don't like it when people try to improve themselves. Hopefully that is on the wain. And then there is the effect of violence in places like Oakland. Its hard to stay out at all hours coding if you have to worry about who'll you encounter on the way home.
- wonderzombie 14y ago
  People think they are "post-racial" if they do not regularly use slurs and/or do not self-identify as racist and/or have friends or coworkers who are not white. Of course, when it comes down to it, very few people self-identify as racist, making this definition not particularly useful. BUT it is a heck of a lot easier to paper over more subtle forms of racism by identifying racism as only the most outlandish kind, and the rest as someone being too sensitive or what have you. A good rule of thumb is that everyone is at least a little bit racist. It's less of a problem if you're willing to admit it and work at it, but by suggesting that we are post-racial (we have a black president, therefore racism is over), white people let themselves off the hook from having to think much about race most of the time.
mmanfrin 14y ago
Not surprised that a hiring campaign like the one they ran would lead to hiring of childish people.
codenerdz 14y ago
I cant help but feel that this qu33riousity guys is coocoo. While I think that what he was subjected to is unacceptable, his rhetoric reminds me of conspiracy nutcases that said that US government played a role in the WTC tragedy: "And it’s not a matter of generalizing white people, rather it’s being real about the culture San Francisco creates. Other people of color, including some black people are in on it too, but the thing to remember is that there have always been people of color down with white supremacy. Matters of colonization run deep throughout the years and beneath our flesh, behind our eyes."
- alecdibble 14y ago
  I don't feel that he is was trying to convey a literal conspiracy. It seems to me like he is saying that he does not like the racial culture of that area and that some African-Americans contribute to the culture in such a way that helps keep the negative dynamic going.
- esperluette 14y ago
  It's sad but true that some members of a minority always find that it's in their personal best interest to be the "good" exemplar of a minority in the opinion of the majority. Think about women who enforce the patriarchy as so that they can be metaphorically patted on the head by men (Phyllis Schafly, Ann Coulter). It's extremely common.
  - agateform 14y ago
    Do you mean the Feminist meaning of patriarchy?(from wikipedia) ""The patriarchal construction of the difference between masculinity and femininity is the political difference between freedom and subjection."[27] In feminist theory the concept of patriarchy often includes all the social mechanisms that reproduce and exert male dominance over women." Patriarchy Feminist theory basically mean women are victims, man have power over woman and are conspiring (conscious or unconscious) oppressors. It is a very toxic and sexist theory, it ignores mens issues and it's also an Apex fallacy. Just because the majority of people at the top are male it does not mean they represent the majority of man. Did you know that in USA women hold the majority of the vote? However I agree that people should not be forced in to gender roles and maybe that is what you meant when you wrote Patriarchy. >metaphorically patted on the head by men The majority of men (including traditionalists) don't treat women like dogs. Traditionalist men even believe in sacrificing their lives to save womens lives. A lot of modern men also believe in that sacrifice.
btilly 14y ago
This is a common response in dysfunctional workplaces. A problem comes up, identify some scapegoats, fire them, put out a PR statement. Whether or not this is meaningful won't be obvious for some time. But at most dysfunctional workplaces the problems go deeper than the scapegoats fired, and problems persist. With an overlay of, "You got my friend fired!"
- mratzloff 14y ago
  Scapegoats or not, I bet the remaining employees are more careful about the things they say from now on.
un1xl0ser 14y ago
It is quite clear that this was not an inclusive working environment. Some of the comments on their own are not overtly racist, but it is certainly walking thin line. I've had a situation that was sort of similar where a co-worker made a comment on my clothing being too uhm, urban. Jeans, oversized hoodie (hood up), and shit kicker boots. I was sick, and it was freezing out walked into a meeting and it was announced that Eminem just walked into the meeting. My reply was (paraphrased) that "Is that the only white rapper you know, I don't look anything like Eminem". I guess I was looking for something like Sage Francis or Necro, but I digress. I felt singled out for the way that I dress. Now I guess that anyone can debate here if what I said or the initial comment was racist, but I would say that it wasn't, just ignorant and stupid. That said, if that comment was slanted ever so slightly to the fact that I have some Jewish heritage, it would trigger a soft spot and would have REALLY irked me. Had some issues with that early in life. So considering the more over-the-top racist comments, and initial reaction of management when confronted, this whole situation is really awful and should not happen. Instead of debating if this is really racism, we should probably just try to limit and control it's effect on our lives. It exists, it's all around us and you don't have to look very far, even in tech companies.
- mratzloff 14y ago
  > I've had a situation that was sort of similar where a co-worker made a comment on my clothing being too uhm, urban. That's not the same thing at all. The guy in question was accused of dressing too "thuggish" when he was wearing skinny jeans and wingtips. In other words, because he was black, regardless of what he was wearing. A joke was made about how you were dressed because you had a hoodie with the hood up and are apparently white... like Eminem[1][2][3][4]. [1] http://cdn.preview.thumbplay.com/VAN/Thumb_Preview/Wall/UMG/Eminem.Eminem_Hoodie_2-00602498893142-800x800.jpg http://cdn.preview.thumbplay.com/VAN/Thumb_Preview/Wall/UMG/... [2] http://images.hitfix.com/photos/703638/eminem-hoodie_article_story_main.jpg http://images.hitfix.com/photos/703638/eminem-hoodie_article... [3] http://www4.pictures.gi.stylebistro.com/Eminem+Tops+Hoodie+0SBZ914m06Bx.jpg http://www4.pictures.gi.stylebistro.com/Eminem+Tops+Hoodie+0... [4] http://inthehoodie.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/eminem.jpg http://inthehoodie.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/emine...
rickmb 14y ago
This isn't racism. This is bullying, using, amongst many other things, marginally racist remarks as a weapon. That kind of stuff is as much racism as tasteless jokes about wife-beating constitute actual domestic violence. This is clearly a very disfunctional and unhealthy work environment, but with the aggressively paranoid reaction to it is equally unhealthy and most of all, fails to address the actual problem. After firing the "racists", this is likely to remain a toxic environment who's next "victim" could very well be a white heterosexual male who for some other reason forms an easy target.
- MartinCron 14y ago
  While I don't agree with your "this isn't real racism" premise, I agree that the dysfunctions probably run deeper than that. I'm reminded of Bob Sutton's great book "The No Asshole Rule". The actions outlined in the blog post are undeniably asshole behaviors, and shouldn't be tolerated in any civilized workplace, with our without the racial implications.
  - 23david 14y ago
    Thanks for the reference to Bob Sutton. I hadn't heard of his book before, and after some research I dug up some great info and articles. http://bobsutton.typepad.com/my_weblog/the_no_asshole_rule/ http://bobsutton.typepad.com/my_weblog/the_no_asshole_rule/ http://blogs.hbr.org/sutton/2007/03/why_i_wrote_the_no_asshole_rule.html http://blogs.hbr.org/sutton/2007/03/why_i_wrote_the_no_assho... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-sutton/the-no-asshole-rule-part-_b_49678.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-sutton/the-no-asshole-r... The Kixeye CEO may have not intended to let things go this far, but from his remarks ( part 1: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/jgntgj http://www.twitlonger.com/show/jgntgj, part 2: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/jh72ja http://www.twitlonger.com/show/jh72ja ) he shows a stunning lack of empathy. One big red flag for me was how he doesn't say how he is planning to make amends with the black contractor and the black community. So it's pretty clear to me that Will Harbin is part of the problem here, and likely is an asshole himself. The company's investors and leaders should take this as a wake-up call and either demote or fire him. They won't reach their potential with 'asshole leadership' in place. A fish rots from the head down.
mathattack 14y ago
Racism or Bullying - either way props to the boss for firing 4 people over it. If you leave that unchecked, it destroys a corporate culture.

61 points by justinhj 14y ago

This was a very disturbing incident, and I can only hope that it was an isolated incident and not indicative of a larger trend in the startup industry. The demographics are skewed enough as it is when it comes to this industry.

Jare 14y ago
Here's hoping the quick, decisive and very public action by management sends a clear signal.
- flyinglizard 14y ago
  Here's hoping that all those who were involved were given due process and handled fairly with the matter being thoroughly investigated by management, rather than being thoughtlessly fired to appease the masses or to be cannon fodder in the lawsuit brought on against kixeye. This is completely regardless of the case at hand, mind. I expect companies to act responsibly towards all employees.
  - phene 14y ago
    Honestly, it sounds like the latter.
  - csomar 14y ago
    There are no signs that the CEO did fire them thoughtlessly. And they also have the right to defend themselves either publicly or in court.
- mturmon 14y ago
  If the practice was as widespread as it seemed to be, and management was aware of it but did not stop it, then the resulting lawsuits could destroy the company. Company management has an affirmative requirement to stop workplace harassment under California law. Race and sexual preference are both protected categories under California law. I was amazed at the stupidity of the management (assuming the post was factual).
chaostheory 14y ago
I don't feel that this is a recurring issue in the startup industry. However based on my past work experience, this is definitely not an isolated incident for the video game industry. The only difference between different companies is how they handle it when it arises. I do remember when working at one of the big three video game publishers: 1) HR and managers would repeatedly educate both new workers and existing employees on both racial discrimination and sexual harassment on a semi-quarterly basis. 2) HR would give anonymous surveys regarding workplace environment every quarter. Regarding the last item, at my last stint at a gaming company; a co-worker reported a case of racial discrimination and it was handled promptly and professionally. There was no time for anyone to blog about the subject. I'm going to agree with other people, HR wasn't doing their job effectively.
- waterlesscloud 14y ago
  I wonder how much of that is due to the racist, sexist, and anti-gay speech that's endemic to online gaming? Do people take that as setting the tone for the industry? Actually, when I think about it, it seems to me that I see less such speech in online games than I did even just a couple of years ago. Maybe I'm just playing different games from that crowd now.
  - chaostheory 14y ago
    > Do people take that as setting the tone for the industry? It's just the same juvenile idiots both online and in the office. Videogame companies tend to attract both the most talented engineers as well as a lot of juvenile idiots. A good HR dept helps mitigate these problems. A video game company without one is either really small or really inexperienced and new.
- wonderzombie 14y ago
  How often and how likely are you, yourself, likely to be a target of racist language? And how keyed into the more subtle forms of racism are you? I mean these as serious questions, not rhetorically. The thing is, you have to be really careful about selection bias and confirmation bias, here. This example happened to be one of the most egregious examples, the easiest to spot. A lot of the more subtle cues will fly right over your head, especially since a lot of behavior with racist over- or undertones is not something white people are exposed to or experience. (I include myself in this statement.) Granted, I am assuming you are white, chiefly based on the demographics of HN and the tech community in general.

aaronbrethorst 14y ago

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/jh72ja http://www.twitlonger.com/show/jh72ja What are we doing to make sure this never happens again in the future? Well, even before this incident, we hired a VP of HR who has implemented a sensitivity training program for all employees. Which was evidently ineffective.

dllthomas 14y ago
The hiring clearly took place before the incident; whether the training took place before the incident is ambiguous. If it did, it was clearly ineffective. If not, then we have no evidence one way or the other as to its effectiveness.
- aaronbrethorst 14y ago
  Excellent point on the ambiguity of it.
waterlesscloud 14y ago
The point of such training is to make it less legally risky to fire people for being insensitive. Looks like it was effective.
- arohner 14y ago
  Stupid question: It's already illegal to discriminate and harass on the basis of race. Why do you need a training program to make it less risky to fire people over it?
  - MartinCron 14y ago
    I think it's less risky because it sends a clear signal to employees that if they're fired for being racist assholes, they don't have any real grounds for to sue for unlawful termination. Even groundless unlawful termination lawsuits are a pain in the ass to deal with. It's better to discourage them than to litigate them.

jacalata 14y ago

"We don’t even tolerate people brining up concerns of racism here." Wow. I assume that somewhere along the line, that guy misunderstood 'zero tolerance of racism'.

csomar 14y ago
Nope, but you don't want topics where the conversation can get heated like politics or racism.
- jacalata 14y ago
  I'm confused: are you the guy being quoted?

mynameishere 14y ago

Everyone is trying his best to be PC, but the real takeaway is that you have to be careful not to hire some ultra-sensitive pantywaist thug who publicly cries "racist" at every shitty joke, giving your company weeks of terrible PR to clean up. “Hey he’s dressed like Run DMC, does he know how to rap?” Oh, the poor darling. Let's ruin a bunch of people's livelihoods over this apparently wicked comment.

indy 14y ago
you sound racist
- sergiotapia 14y ago
  As a Latino minority, promptly go fuck yourself. You and the PC crowd are the scourge against "getting shit done". Go back to /r/shitredditsays you twat. If you're offended by things like this you are either: a) Extremely sheltered. b) A racist yourself.
  - coderdude 14y ago
    This place is ridiculous. They're calling him racist, a troll, coward, little boy? These people are being upvoted for this? It's pathetic and embarrassing to be lumped in with this crowd. You're being downvoted for speaking the truth. They're not downvoting you because you called someone racist or sheltered, at least you know that. It can't be because you told him to go fuck himself since being civil obviously isn't something they care about either.
  - npc 14y ago
    how is it necessary to make racist comments in order to "get shit done"? will your production systems all crash if you don't make a minimum of 5 jokes about nappy hair and malt liquor a day? have you encountered a nasty bug in rails that can only be fixed by exposing it to clips of Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's?
    - 14y ago

columbo 14y ago

I'm one of the people who posted on the previous thread that didn't agree with the tone/method of the original blog post. Not that it matters in the slightest what I think. However, I'm glad it turned out this way.

flyinglizard 14y ago
I did not like it either. I thought it was laid with racist overtones and stereotypes. I also thought that it is peculiar that someone would choose to introduce themselves as a "poor black queer" instead of bringing forth their personality or skills or ideas. Newsflash: if you are interesting or do cool stuff I don't give a fuck about your skin tone or sexual preference.
- drivebyacct2 14y ago
  ... That was rather the point. >if you are interesting or do cool stuff I don't give a fuck about your skin tone And I'm guessing you're white and straight and thus have not spent the amount of timing thinking about others as I and other people have. We're not worried about you. We're worried about people like these employees who DO give "a fuck" about skin tone or sexual preference. It's funny that you condemn him for probably jokingly and self-deprecatingly calling himself a "poor black queer", yet that's what he was reduced to when you're treated as such day in and day out.
  - flyinglizard 14y ago
    To me it sounded like someone with a rooted "versus" mentality that defines themselves using their externality and sexual preference because, well, its just easier. You are not wrong about me, but I have plenty of gay friends in the workplace, and being talented they don't define themselves through their orientation.
    - wonderzombie 14y ago
      It's a hell of a lot easier not to have a "versus" mentality when you are in a privileged position. Conversely, when everyone around you can instantly see that you are different, and when you're reminded daily that you are different by mainstream culture, you'd probably have a different attitude. You're visibly, repeatedly, and viscerally reminded that you are Different. I don't know what that's like, but it's something this particular fellow has to live with every moment of his life. That's going to have an impact on your attitude, and I'm willing to cut the guy more than a little slack. "Can't we all get along" is a luxury cis, straight, white males have, in no small part because a lot of mainstream American culture is created by and for that set of categories.

codemac 14y ago

> While many in San Francisco have begun to use the term "post racist" as a matter-fact-statement to describe the relatively inclusive work environment, the difference between the mostly affluent white community on the peninsula and the impoverished Oakland across the bay is impossible to miss. What? Who says that? The only time I've heard the phrase "post racist" is either The Colbert Report, or people being sarcastic in reference to something really racist. It's because of places like Oakland that no one I know in San Francisco believes on any level we live in a "post racial America". That little sentence is really offensive to me and hopefully others who are aware of the severe and drastic gender and racial inequalities in the tech industry. Until I see ~10% of tech workforces being African American, I'm not even going to begin to think about "post racial" anything.

stretchwithme 14y ago
I think things are more complicated than statistics can properly capture. Its possible to start a software business with very little resources. And there are people of all races that have done so. Do the users know what race of people are developing their software? Do they care? That does not mean that some groups are not more wary of doing things due to past racism and the possibility of encountering it more when they go outside their comfort zone. Many, many people in all groups do what is expected over many other values. I also think there are just as many people who will go out of their way to help and do business with someone different as will hold it against them. Frankly, for many skills, if you're a coding demon, they will hire you. I doubt you will find anyone in any group with significant talent that isn't turning away work. There are other factors as well. Many people in some communities don't like it when people try to improve themselves. Hopefully that is on the wain. And then there is the effect of violence in places like Oakland. Its hard to stay out at all hours coding if you have to worry about who'll you encounter on the way home.
wonderzombie 14y ago
People think they are "post-racial" if they do not regularly use slurs and/or do not self-identify as racist and/or have friends or coworkers who are not white. Of course, when it comes down to it, very few people self-identify as racist, making this definition not particularly useful. BUT it is a heck of a lot easier to paper over more subtle forms of racism by identifying racism as only the most outlandish kind, and the rest as someone being too sensitive or what have you. A good rule of thumb is that everyone is at least a little bit racist. It's less of a problem if you're willing to admit it and work at it, but by suggesting that we are post-racial (we have a black president, therefore racism is over), white people let themselves off the hook from having to think much about race most of the time.

mmanfrin 14y ago

Not surprised that a hiring campaign like the one they ran would lead to hiring of childish people.

codenerdz 14y ago

I cant help but feel that this qu33riousity guys is coocoo. While I think that what he was subjected to is unacceptable, his rhetoric reminds me of conspiracy nutcases that said that US government played a role in the WTC tragedy: "And it’s not a matter of generalizing white people, rather it’s being real about the culture San Francisco creates. Other people of color, including some black people are in on it too, but the thing to remember is that there have always been people of color down with white supremacy. Matters of colonization run deep throughout the years and beneath our flesh, behind our eyes."

alecdibble 14y ago
I don't feel that he is was trying to convey a literal conspiracy. It seems to me like he is saying that he does not like the racial culture of that area and that some African-Americans contribute to the culture in such a way that helps keep the negative dynamic going.
esperluette 14y ago
It's sad but true that some members of a minority always find that it's in their personal best interest to be the "good" exemplar of a minority in the opinion of the majority. Think about women who enforce the patriarchy as so that they can be metaphorically patted on the head by men (Phyllis Schafly, Ann Coulter). It's extremely common.
- agateform 14y ago
  Do you mean the Feminist meaning of patriarchy?(from wikipedia) ""The patriarchal construction of the difference between masculinity and femininity is the political difference between freedom and subjection."[27] In feminist theory the concept of patriarchy often includes all the social mechanisms that reproduce and exert male dominance over women." Patriarchy Feminist theory basically mean women are victims, man have power over woman and are conspiring (conscious or unconscious) oppressors. It is a very toxic and sexist theory, it ignores mens issues and it's also an Apex fallacy. Just because the majority of people at the top are male it does not mean they represent the majority of man. Did you know that in USA women hold the majority of the vote? However I agree that people should not be forced in to gender roles and maybe that is what you meant when you wrote Patriarchy. >metaphorically patted on the head by men The majority of men (including traditionalists) don't treat women like dogs. Traditionalist men even believe in sacrificing their lives to save womens lives. A lot of modern men also believe in that sacrifice.

btilly 14y ago

This is a common response in dysfunctional workplaces. A problem comes up, identify some scapegoats, fire them, put out a PR statement. Whether or not this is meaningful won't be obvious for some time. But at most dysfunctional workplaces the problems go deeper than the scapegoats fired, and problems persist. With an overlay of, "You got my friend fired!"

mratzloff 14y ago
Scapegoats or not, I bet the remaining employees are more careful about the things they say from now on.

un1xl0ser 14y ago

It is quite clear that this was not an inclusive working environment. Some of the comments on their own are not overtly racist, but it is certainly walking thin line. I've had a situation that was sort of similar where a co-worker made a comment on my clothing being too uhm, urban. Jeans, oversized hoodie (hood up), and shit kicker boots. I was sick, and it was freezing out walked into a meeting and it was announced that Eminem just walked into the meeting. My reply was (paraphrased) that "Is that the only white rapper you know, I don't look anything like Eminem". I guess I was looking for something like Sage Francis or Necro, but I digress. I felt singled out for the way that I dress. Now I guess that anyone can debate here if what I said or the initial comment was racist, but I would say that it wasn't, just ignorant and stupid. That said, if that comment was slanted ever so slightly to the fact that I have some Jewish heritage, it would trigger a soft spot and would have REALLY irked me. Had some issues with that early in life. So considering the more over-the-top racist comments, and initial reaction of management when confronted, this whole situation is really awful and should not happen. Instead of debating if this is really racism, we should probably just try to limit and control it's effect on our lives. It exists, it's all around us and you don't have to look very far, even in tech companies.

mratzloff 14y ago
> I've had a situation that was sort of similar where a co-worker made a comment on my clothing being too uhm, urban. That's not the same thing at all. The guy in question was accused of dressing too "thuggish" when he was wearing skinny jeans and wingtips. In other words, because he was black, regardless of what he was wearing. A joke was made about how you were dressed because you had a hoodie with the hood up and are apparently white... like Eminem[1][2][3][4]. [1] http://cdn.preview.thumbplay.com/VAN/Thumb_Preview/Wall/UMG/Eminem.Eminem_Hoodie_2-00602498893142-800x800.jpg http://cdn.preview.thumbplay.com/VAN/Thumb_Preview/Wall/UMG/... [2] http://images.hitfix.com/photos/703638/eminem-hoodie_article_story_main.jpg http://images.hitfix.com/photos/703638/eminem-hoodie_article... [3] http://www4.pictures.gi.stylebistro.com/Eminem+Tops+Hoodie+0SBZ914m06Bx.jpg http://www4.pictures.gi.stylebistro.com/Eminem+Tops+Hoodie+0... [4] http://inthehoodie.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/eminem.jpg http://inthehoodie.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/emine...

rickmb 14y ago

This isn't racism. This is bullying, using, amongst many other things, marginally racist remarks as a weapon. That kind of stuff is as much racism as tasteless jokes about wife-beating constitute actual domestic violence. This is clearly a very disfunctional and unhealthy work environment, but with the aggressively paranoid reaction to it is equally unhealthy and most of all, fails to address the actual problem. After firing the "racists", this is likely to remain a toxic environment who's next "victim" could very well be a white heterosexual male who for some other reason forms an easy target.

MartinCron 14y ago
While I don't agree with your "this isn't real racism" premise, I agree that the dysfunctions probably run deeper than that. I'm reminded of Bob Sutton's great book "The No Asshole Rule". The actions outlined in the blog post are undeniably asshole behaviors, and shouldn't be tolerated in any civilized workplace, with our without the racial implications.
- 23david 14y ago
  Thanks for the reference to Bob Sutton. I hadn't heard of his book before, and after some research I dug up some great info and articles. http://bobsutton.typepad.com/my_weblog/the_no_asshole_rule/ http://bobsutton.typepad.com/my_weblog/the_no_asshole_rule/ http://blogs.hbr.org/sutton/2007/03/why_i_wrote_the_no_asshole_rule.html http://blogs.hbr.org/sutton/2007/03/why_i_wrote_the_no_assho... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-sutton/the-no-asshole-rule-part-_b_49678.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-sutton/the-no-asshole-r... The Kixeye CEO may have not intended to let things go this far, but from his remarks ( part 1: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/jgntgj http://www.twitlonger.com/show/jgntgj, part 2: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/jh72ja http://www.twitlonger.com/show/jh72ja ) he shows a stunning lack of empathy. One big red flag for me was how he doesn't say how he is planning to make amends with the black contractor and the black community. So it's pretty clear to me that Will Harbin is part of the problem here, and likely is an asshole himself. The company's investors and leaders should take this as a wake-up call and either demote or fire him. They won't reach their potential with 'asshole leadership' in place. A fish rots from the head down.

mathattack 14y ago

Racism or Bullying - either way props to the boss for firing 4 people over it. If you leave that unchecked, it destroys a corporate culture.