3 ms·

"Glib is the word I would use, for romanticizing a scenario" I would use glib in the same way that people romanticize people living in poverty. Particularly si

by larrys 14y ago

"Glib is the word I would use, for romanticizing a scenario" I would use glib in the same way that people romanticize people living in poverty. Particularly single moms with good kids living in the ghetto. Single mom works so hard holding down 3 jobs cleaning offices and her kids all work hard if only they were given a chance and didn't live in the projects. (Watch http://www.pruitt-igoe.com/ http://www.pruitt-igoe.com/ on netflix to see a little back story) While that situation exists of course (and in fact I remember growing up commercials for the united negro college fund) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfwpeHzc8ks http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfwpeHzc8ks ...most likely in reality (drive through any poor neighborhood) there is something else going on that produces the behavior that is observed.

guelo 14y ago
I'm impressed that you're able to do a sociological study of "the others" as you drive through their neighborhoods, probably with your windows up and doors locked. Non-snarkily, I think people are the same everywhere, mostly good and hard working with occasional cheating when they think they can get away with it. From my personal anecdata, I've seen both shady deplorable acts and admirable selfless acts from millionaires, middle class, working poor, and even from homeless people on the street. I do think that the fact that poor people have to rely on help from their social network more often makes them more humble in general.
- larrys 14y ago
  "Non-snarkily, I think people are the same everywhere, mostly good and hard working" If that is the case then why do I keep my windows up when I drive through those neighborhoods. Are you saying I have nothing to fear driving my new expensive car through, say, many areas of Newark NJ or areas such as the "Badlands" in Phila PA? Or that I am safe to walk the streets in those areas? And if those areas are so great and wonderful places to raise families why are the actual good hard working people that live there trying to get out to provide better for their children?
  - guelo 14y ago
    I have no idea about those neighborhoods, but I've spent plenty of time in east Oakland without incident, statistically the 4th most dangerous city in the country. No matter how much crap you hear in the news it's not an actual war zone, most people lead normal day to day lives. From my experience people want to get out because the government services like schools and police suck, not because they hate their neighbors.
    - larrys 14y ago
      "but I've spent plenty of time in east Oakland without incident, statistically the 4th most dangerous city in the country." You do what you can do to protect yourself. While crime can and does happen everywhere there are places that you are more likely to be a victim of a crime. Probability wise of course. Even with respect to car theft you will find that insurance companies charged rates depending on where you live and even where you park your car (garage etc.) There is a basis for this you know.
  - sadga 14y ago
    Let's suppose, for the sake or argument, that 40% of the population of the "Badlands" are truly evil murderous thieves, who have no compunction firing a pistol into your car as you drive by, and suppose further that every day each one of them partakes of this pastime. A horrible, dangerous place, seething with evil, yes? Far worse than the reality, no doubt, but let's go with it. What do you make of the other 60%?
    - CamperBob2 14y ago
      What do you make of the other 60%? That they're good people who allowed evil to triumph by doing nothing to stop it?
  - tptacek 14y ago
    Yes, it is safe to drive in your expensive car through Newark or to walk the street in north Philly.
poppysan 14y ago
I grew up in extreme poverty on a very dangerous street. My father died when I was a child, and with half an income, my mom was forced to work several jobs to support herself and 5 children. The only place we could afford to live was the "ghetto". My siblings and I worked hard each day, with no electricity on some days, no running water on others. Even with this hard work, only 2 of my siblings have managed to excel to middle class or beyond. None of us have ever been arrested or addicted to drugs or alcohol. Why did the 3 children advance, while 2 are still struggling? It is because when my father died, my younger 2 siblings were 3 and 4 years old. We moved to the bad neighborhood the year after, and they grew up with no realistic model of "success" with which to strive. The model they were exposed to was that of my mother's new role - take on as many back-breaking jobs as possible just to barely scrape by. My younger brothers work VASTLY harder than I do, with little to show for the effort. I tell this story as a contrast to your analysis. While poverty breeds desperation (you are definitely more likely to get robbed of your luxury items while in a bad neighborhood), it also adds a grit that is hard to describe. I saw children of Crack-addicted prostitutes making sure that they got themselves and siblings to school each morning. I saw good, honest kids who had little expectation from themselves, or from the world at large. And they achieved (and received) their expectations. I think its easy to romanticize any situation, but I would seriously implore you to reconsider your preconceived notion on the inhabitants of these low income neighborhoods. The more widespread this belief, the fewer intelligent people willing to work to fix these difficult issues.
- puredemo 14y ago
  Cultural imprinting, basically: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imprinting_%28psychology%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imprinting_%28psychology%29
- AVTizzle 14y ago
  If HN had a "bestof", I'd submit this.
- larrys 14y ago
  First let me say that I feel bad for your situation and what happened to your father. But you say "fewer intelligent people willing to work to fix these difficult issues" juxtaposed against "2 are still struggling? It is because when my father died, my younger 2 siblings were 3 and 4 years old. We moved to the bad neighborhood the year after, and they grew up with no realistic model of "success" with which to strive." So what have the 3 children who advanced (including you) done to help the 2 that did not? I'm curious because you are suggesting that there is something that an outsider can do (and surely they can do something agreed) so I'd like to know what someone in that situation does to help their own family? On another note do you also feel that part of the problem is perhaps having more kids than you can support? Depending on your income it would generally be easier to provide a good lifestyle for 2 kids then for 5, correct? Don't take offense I simply would like to know your thoughts.
yummyfajitas 14y ago
Most people living in poverty have 0 jobs (and are not looking for one), not 3. http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpswp2007.pdf http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpswp2007.pdf The belief in the hardworking poor person who can't get ahead is also a romanticization of poverty.

by larrys 14y ago

guelo 14y ago

I'm impressed that you're able to do a sociological study of "the others" as you drive through their neighborhoods, probably with your windows up and doors locked. Non-snarkily, I think people are the same everywhere, mostly good and hard working with occasional cheating when they think they can get away with it. From my personal anecdata, I've seen both shady deplorable acts and admirable selfless acts from millionaires, middle class, working poor, and even from homeless people on the street. I do think that the fact that poor people have to rely on help from their social network more often makes them more humble in general.

larrys 14y ago
"Non-snarkily, I think people are the same everywhere, mostly good and hard working" If that is the case then why do I keep my windows up when I drive through those neighborhoods. Are you saying I have nothing to fear driving my new expensive car through, say, many areas of Newark NJ or areas such as the "Badlands" in Phila PA? Or that I am safe to walk the streets in those areas? And if those areas are so great and wonderful places to raise families why are the actual good hard working people that live there trying to get out to provide better for their children?
- guelo 14y ago
  I have no idea about those neighborhoods, but I've spent plenty of time in east Oakland without incident, statistically the 4th most dangerous city in the country. No matter how much crap you hear in the news it's not an actual war zone, most people lead normal day to day lives. From my experience people want to get out because the government services like schools and police suck, not because they hate their neighbors.
  - larrys 14y ago
    "but I've spent plenty of time in east Oakland without incident, statistically the 4th most dangerous city in the country." You do what you can do to protect yourself. While crime can and does happen everywhere there are places that you are more likely to be a victim of a crime. Probability wise of course. Even with respect to car theft you will find that insurance companies charged rates depending on where you live and even where you park your car (garage etc.) There is a basis for this you know.
- sadga 14y ago
  Let's suppose, for the sake or argument, that 40% of the population of the "Badlands" are truly evil murderous thieves, who have no compunction firing a pistol into your car as you drive by, and suppose further that every day each one of them partakes of this pastime. A horrible, dangerous place, seething with evil, yes? Far worse than the reality, no doubt, but let's go with it. What do you make of the other 60%?
  - CamperBob2 14y ago
    What do you make of the other 60%? That they're good people who allowed evil to triumph by doing nothing to stop it?
- tptacek 14y ago
  Yes, it is safe to drive in your expensive car through Newark or to walk the street in north Philly.

poppysan 14y ago

I grew up in extreme poverty on a very dangerous street. My father died when I was a child, and with half an income, my mom was forced to work several jobs to support herself and 5 children. The only place we could afford to live was the "ghetto". My siblings and I worked hard each day, with no electricity on some days, no running water on others. Even with this hard work, only 2 of my siblings have managed to excel to middle class or beyond. None of us have ever been arrested or addicted to drugs or alcohol. Why did the 3 children advance, while 2 are still struggling? It is because when my father died, my younger 2 siblings were 3 and 4 years old. We moved to the bad neighborhood the year after, and they grew up with no realistic model of "success" with which to strive. The model they were exposed to was that of my mother's new role - take on as many back-breaking jobs as possible just to barely scrape by. My younger brothers work VASTLY harder than I do, with little to show for the effort. I tell this story as a contrast to your analysis. While poverty breeds desperation (you are definitely more likely to get robbed of your luxury items while in a bad neighborhood), it also adds a grit that is hard to describe. I saw children of Crack-addicted prostitutes making sure that they got themselves and siblings to school each morning. I saw good, honest kids who had little expectation from themselves, or from the world at large. And they achieved (and received) their expectations. I think its easy to romanticize any situation, but I would seriously implore you to reconsider your preconceived notion on the inhabitants of these low income neighborhoods. The more widespread this belief, the fewer intelligent people willing to work to fix these difficult issues.

puredemo 14y ago
Cultural imprinting, basically: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imprinting_%28psychology%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imprinting_%28psychology%29
AVTizzle 14y ago
If HN had a "bestof", I'd submit this.
larrys 14y ago
First let me say that I feel bad for your situation and what happened to your father. But you say "fewer intelligent people willing to work to fix these difficult issues" juxtaposed against "2 are still struggling? It is because when my father died, my younger 2 siblings were 3 and 4 years old. We moved to the bad neighborhood the year after, and they grew up with no realistic model of "success" with which to strive." So what have the 3 children who advanced (including you) done to help the 2 that did not? I'm curious because you are suggesting that there is something that an outsider can do (and surely they can do something agreed) so I'd like to know what someone in that situation does to help their own family? On another note do you also feel that part of the problem is perhaps having more kids than you can support? Depending on your income it would generally be easier to provide a good lifestyle for 2 kids then for 5, correct? Don't take offense I simply would like to know your thoughts.

yummyfajitas 14y ago

Most people living in poverty have 0 jobs (and are not looking for one), not 3. http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpswp2007.pdf http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpswp2007.pdf The belief in the hardworking poor person who can't get ahead is also a romanticization of poverty.