6 ms·

Yes and the question is who does the German state really target to enroll in their "new" army. Because "This generation" has a lot of clearly distinct groups.

Yes and the question is who does the German state really target to enroll in their "new" army. Because "This generation" has a lot of clearly distinct groups. So it could be: - the native young population who are now flocking in the AfD - the people fighting the AfD in the street - the second generation immigrants born there - the very recent immigrants - a mix of all Because the alchemy of creating a working army and "esprit de corps" is much harder than in a corporation. You cannot just take a modern managerial approach to creating an army. A mix of all will end up obviously in a disaster but selecting on any group will end up in a civil war or coup.

jasonvorhe 11mo ago
Once the economy starts to collapse even more due to rising energy prices/cost of living they'll find enough people for the front. This would be the first war ever where no one showed up. Not going to happen. Bundeswehr has been whitewashed and propped up for years already in spite of being completely incapable of even providing Germany with defense for a prolonged time. Many IT projects for freelancers in Germany are Bundeswehr/NATO related because they're among the few who hire people right now because of the economic situation. Once we reach the point where people have to decide if they enlist in order to to keep on feeding their families, that'll sort itself out.
nicbou 11mo ago
I'm in the "recent" immigrants group. I qualify for citizenship since a few years, but this Wehrpflicht nonsense is why I haven't sent my application yet. I don't think that the social situation is as bad as you describe. I just think that people generally don't feel keen to put their life on the line for Germany.
- sunshine-o 11mo ago
  > I just think that people generally don't feel keen to put their life on the line for Germany. Yes this what I am sincerely wondering: which group (however you want to define it) of relatively young people, do they believe they can leverage "to put their life on the line for Germany"?
  - jasonvorhe 11mo ago
    By drowning the economy in crisises (energy costs, inflation, immigration, various climate taxes for industries, road tolls) while ramping up billions for military expenses. A stealthy way of shifting to a military industry. The Bundeswehr spent a lot of money on advertising over the last 6-7 years.
    - seec 10mo ago
      It feels like a repeat of a situation that wasn't that long ago.
  - Nextgrid 11mo ago
    You'd have better success getting people to fight for your cause when you provide them something of value they can't get elsewhere. When what people get (using their labor to subsidize politicians & boomers via taxes & rent) is the same thing they can get in effectively any country or even under the invader's rule, the incentives to fight said invader become quite scarce. This isn't even specific to Germany; a lot of people are fleeing conscription on both sides of the current conflict for the same reason - they just don't get enough benefit to make it worth putting their life on the line.
  - arw0n 10mo ago
    The plan currently involves a net salary of around 2k€/month, which is quite a lot for people fresh out of school.
- hilios 11mo ago
  I think people generally aren't keen on putting their life on the line for anything. But even if this was a mandatory conscription, there is still the constitutional right of conscientious objection.
- deleted 11mo ago
  [deleted]
- jijijijij 11mo ago
  > I qualify for citizenship since a few years, but this Wehrpflicht nonsense is why I haven't sent my application yet. First world problems... You will always be able to object military service, it's not difficult at all and absolutely won't be any time soon. I have a hard time imagining you to be forced to do alternative service. In case of actual war, when mobilization becomes a reality, well... your origin country will likely be involved too.
  - deleted 11mo ago
    [deleted]
- speedbird 11mo ago
  I think if you want the benefits of living in a country then you should be willing to defend it. This attitude of entitlement without responsibility is exactly what gives migrants a bad name.
  - nicbou 11mo ago
    I'm not getting any benefits. I was raised and educated elsewhere. I have no access to most social services. I have no kids. I'm here to pay taxes and get the bare minimum back. The services I've been getting were really nothing to write home about. Ever since I moved here, the law made it very clear that this was a transactional relationship. That cuts both ways. I uphold German values in my everyday behaviour. Killing for Germany was never on the table.
    - speedbird 11mo ago
      So why are you there then?
    - throwaway6734 11mo ago
      > I'm here to pay taxes and get the bare minimum back I find this point of view to be profoundly sad and I hope it’s not shared by the majority of immigrants to germany
      - jasonvorhe 11mo ago
        Not just immigrants, most Germans pay taxes for very little in return while bureaucracy keeps growing.
        arw0n 10mo ago
        You are getting downvoted, but it is true that young people are getting a very rough deal, and a lot of the people in my circle are looking to emgirate. Friends from other countries and students (mostly know them through academia), are also not looking for long-term opportunities here anymore, which was different 15 years ago. I would be far less annoyed with paying very high taxes and social contributions (around 50% of my income), if the services provided worked. But this just hasn't been the case for me. The healthcare system is close to breaking apart, and after moving to a new city 6 months ago I have been unable to find doctors willing to take me in. Childcare is constantly closing down due to staff shortages, buying a house is unrealistic unless both partners have good jobs or you inherit, and the jobs market is incredibly rigid and inflexible. Every single one of these points are worse for young people then for older ones, and the only thing the government seems to get done is giving weapons training to young people and gifting pensioners 180b$/year extra.
flohofwoe 11mo ago
> A mix of all will end up obviously in a disaster Why would an army that directly mirrors the civil society be a bad thing?
- sunshine-o 11mo ago
  Because the military and war is like putting a society in a pressure cooker. Nothing good comes out of it. We have been told in most stories that this is a time when people come together and stand up but this is really propaganda. The reality is most people go a little bit crazy and paranoid in these situation. Understandably. For example, friendly fires have always been very much under reported. Can you imagine what it lead too when an army is already a bit suspicious of each other?
  - jijijijij 11mo ago
    Dude, it's kids. Their mind isn't set in stone, their opinions aren't very founded. Basic military service also includes ethical/political education. People are not getting packed into trenches yet, it's not prison. If anything, this is going to help tensions in society. They will share rooms, showers, dirt and sweat. We're all the same. Nothing has been shown more effective at tearing down prejudices than actual exposure and confrontation.
    - nsoqm 11mo ago
      > We're all the same. Nothing has been shown more effective at tearing down prejudices than actual exposure and confrontation. History is full of counter-examples.
      - jijijijij 11mo ago
        Under scientific scrutiny it is not, tho. Contact interventions are considered the most effective tool to reduce prejudices across domains. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contact_hypothesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contact_hypothesis https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0149718925000230 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S014971892...
jijijijij 11mo ago
Lol, that's not an exhaustive characterization of "this generation". Most people are in neither group. Also, the AfD folks would be rather fighting for Russia, the leftist activists will conscientiously object, and recent immigrants are not allowed to serve. Very weird to mention "second gen immigrants", as if ethnostate-ish racial tension is a wider issue in Germany and they are not normal citizens. I see no difference to children of Turkish migrants serving in the past. Do you realize Germany had mandatory military service before? > A mix of all will end up obviously in a disaster but selecting on any group will end up in a civil war or coup. Obviously! Jeez... Btw. historically, after WWII, one of the reasons to have mandatory military service for every man was specifically to get a diverse army, as a cross-section of society, instead of clusters of certain dispositions, so the Bundeswehr exactly won't become an ideological, political force. Conscientious objection is a legal right for every soldier, at any moment, because of it. The constitution also prevents any sort of "group selection". A homogenized army is much more dangerous to the democratic order, than a diverse one. People thought of this before...
- sunshine-o 11mo ago
  > Also, the AfD folks would be rather fighting for Russia This is what I was suspecting a bit. But how did they get there? didn't the people from the former German Democratic Republic (where AfD is very strong and a lot of recruits are) broke the wall to liberate themselves from Russia and the USSR? What happened in the last decade that they would now swing back to Russia?
  - PeterStuer 11mo ago
    They discovered that just like under 'communism', in the 'west' not everyone gets the life of the top 10%.
  - jijijijij 11mo ago
    For context, it's important to keep in mind the population density in former DDR regions is very low. Young people often flee towards bigger liberal cities, as soon as possible. Pronounced in eastern Germany, the AfD is a national problem. In short: Propaganda. Germany is a major target of Russian influence. The AfD itself is heavily funded by Russia. There is no "old love" situation, Russia isn't representing socialist ideals or anything. (Russia wasn't loved back then either, btw.) Quite frankly, AfD followers often are just misled and detached from reason (e.g. objectively voting against their own interests). If you talk to them they often entertain some really fucking wild ideas and conspiratorial thinking. Of all parties in Germany, AfD has probably the most successful social media campaign, especially on TikTok. Mind you, the AfD's "not our problem"/"do nothing" position is aiding Russia in Ukraine. It's easy to put a nationalist/antisemitic spin on it. Now, the leftist party is another story. There you find a completely misguided "old love" base, which is dogmatically "pacifist" and anti-NATO. They really should check the values Russia represents these days...
quickthrowman 11mo ago
I would assume it will mostly be youths from the former GDR, which is extremely visible on economic maps, for instance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_states_by_GRDP_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_states_by_GRDP_... Former East Germany is lit up in red, similar to how you could see the old borders on night satellite photos from the color temperature of the outdoor lights in West and East Germany, which was most easily noticed in Berlin (article has a picture from 2012): https://kottke.org/19/11/the-berlin-wall-of-light https://kottke.org/19/11/the-berlin-wall-of-light The outdoor lights will eventually all be LED, which will erase the old border from the night skies.
wtcactus 10mo ago
> “ A mix of all will end up obviously in a disaster”. I totally disagree. Everywhere I look, I’m being told that “diversity is our strength”. This will surely be the most awesome military in the history of human civilization.
khelavastr 10mo ago
Easy question: all of the above. National unity is more valuable than ever.

jasonvorhe 11mo ago

Once the economy starts to collapse even more due to rising energy prices/cost of living they'll find enough people for the front. This would be the first war ever where no one showed up. Not going to happen. Bundeswehr has been whitewashed and propped up for years already in spite of being completely incapable of even providing Germany with defense for a prolonged time. Many IT projects for freelancers in Germany are Bundeswehr/NATO related because they're among the few who hire people right now because of the economic situation. Once we reach the point where people have to decide if they enlist in order to to keep on feeding their families, that'll sort itself out.

nicbou 11mo ago

I'm in the "recent" immigrants group. I qualify for citizenship since a few years, but this Wehrpflicht nonsense is why I haven't sent my application yet. I don't think that the social situation is as bad as you describe. I just think that people generally don't feel keen to put their life on the line for Germany.

sunshine-o 11mo ago
> I just think that people generally don't feel keen to put their life on the line for Germany. Yes this what I am sincerely wondering: which group (however you want to define it) of relatively young people, do they believe they can leverage "to put their life on the line for Germany"?
- jasonvorhe 11mo ago
  By drowning the economy in crisises (energy costs, inflation, immigration, various climate taxes for industries, road tolls) while ramping up billions for military expenses. A stealthy way of shifting to a military industry. The Bundeswehr spent a lot of money on advertising over the last 6-7 years.
  - seec 10mo ago
    It feels like a repeat of a situation that wasn't that long ago.
- Nextgrid 11mo ago
  You'd have better success getting people to fight for your cause when you provide them something of value they can't get elsewhere. When what people get (using their labor to subsidize politicians & boomers via taxes & rent) is the same thing they can get in effectively any country or even under the invader's rule, the incentives to fight said invader become quite scarce. This isn't even specific to Germany; a lot of people are fleeing conscription on both sides of the current conflict for the same reason - they just don't get enough benefit to make it worth putting their life on the line.
- arw0n 10mo ago
  The plan currently involves a net salary of around 2k€/month, which is quite a lot for people fresh out of school.
hilios 11mo ago
I think people generally aren't keen on putting their life on the line for anything. But even if this was a mandatory conscription, there is still the constitutional right of conscientious objection.
deleted 11mo ago
[deleted]
jijijijij 11mo ago
> I qualify for citizenship since a few years, but this Wehrpflicht nonsense is why I haven't sent my application yet. First world problems... You will always be able to object military service, it's not difficult at all and absolutely won't be any time soon. I have a hard time imagining you to be forced to do alternative service. In case of actual war, when mobilization becomes a reality, well... your origin country will likely be involved too.
- deleted 11mo ago
  [deleted]
speedbird 11mo ago
I think if you want the benefits of living in a country then you should be willing to defend it. This attitude of entitlement without responsibility is exactly what gives migrants a bad name.
- nicbou 11mo ago
  I'm not getting any benefits. I was raised and educated elsewhere. I have no access to most social services. I have no kids. I'm here to pay taxes and get the bare minimum back. The services I've been getting were really nothing to write home about. Ever since I moved here, the law made it very clear that this was a transactional relationship. That cuts both ways. I uphold German values in my everyday behaviour. Killing for Germany was never on the table.
  - speedbird 11mo ago
    So why are you there then?
  - throwaway6734 11mo ago
    > I'm here to pay taxes and get the bare minimum back I find this point of view to be profoundly sad and I hope it’s not shared by the majority of immigrants to germany
    - jasonvorhe 11mo ago
      Not just immigrants, most Germans pay taxes for very little in return while bureaucracy keeps growing.
      - arw0n 10mo ago
        You are getting downvoted, but it is true that young people are getting a very rough deal, and a lot of the people in my circle are looking to emgirate. Friends from other countries and students (mostly know them through academia), are also not looking for long-term opportunities here anymore, which was different 15 years ago. I would be far less annoyed with paying very high taxes and social contributions (around 50% of my income), if the services provided worked. But this just hasn't been the case for me. The healthcare system is close to breaking apart, and after moving to a new city 6 months ago I have been unable to find doctors willing to take me in. Childcare is constantly closing down due to staff shortages, buying a house is unrealistic unless both partners have good jobs or you inherit, and the jobs market is incredibly rigid and inflexible. Every single one of these points are worse for young people then for older ones, and the only thing the government seems to get done is giving weapons training to young people and gifting pensioners 180b$/year extra.

flohofwoe 11mo ago

> A mix of all will end up obviously in a disaster Why would an army that directly mirrors the civil society be a bad thing?

sunshine-o 11mo ago
Because the military and war is like putting a society in a pressure cooker. Nothing good comes out of it. We have been told in most stories that this is a time when people come together and stand up but this is really propaganda. The reality is most people go a little bit crazy and paranoid in these situation. Understandably. For example, friendly fires have always been very much under reported. Can you imagine what it lead too when an army is already a bit suspicious of each other?
- jijijijij 11mo ago
  Dude, it's kids. Their mind isn't set in stone, their opinions aren't very founded. Basic military service also includes ethical/political education. People are not getting packed into trenches yet, it's not prison. If anything, this is going to help tensions in society. They will share rooms, showers, dirt and sweat. We're all the same. Nothing has been shown more effective at tearing down prejudices than actual exposure and confrontation.
  - nsoqm 11mo ago
    > We're all the same. Nothing has been shown more effective at tearing down prejudices than actual exposure and confrontation. History is full of counter-examples.
    - jijijijij 11mo ago
      Under scientific scrutiny it is not, tho. Contact interventions are considered the most effective tool to reduce prejudices across domains. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contact_hypothesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contact_hypothesis https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0149718925000230 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S014971892...

jijijijij 11mo ago

Lol, that's not an exhaustive characterization of "this generation". Most people are in neither group. Also, the AfD folks would be rather fighting for Russia, the leftist activists will conscientiously object, and recent immigrants are not allowed to serve. Very weird to mention "second gen immigrants", as if ethnostate-ish racial tension is a wider issue in Germany and they are not normal citizens. I see no difference to children of Turkish migrants serving in the past. Do you realize Germany had mandatory military service before? > A mix of all will end up obviously in a disaster but selecting on any group will end up in a civil war or coup. Obviously! Jeez... Btw. historically, after WWII, one of the reasons to have mandatory military service for every man was specifically to get a diverse army, as a cross-section of society, instead of clusters of certain dispositions, so the Bundeswehr exactly won't become an ideological, political force. Conscientious objection is a legal right for every soldier, at any moment, because of it. The constitution also prevents any sort of "group selection". A homogenized army is much more dangerous to the democratic order, than a diverse one. People thought of this before...

sunshine-o 11mo ago
> Also, the AfD folks would be rather fighting for Russia This is what I was suspecting a bit. But how did they get there? didn't the people from the former German Democratic Republic (where AfD is very strong and a lot of recruits are) broke the wall to liberate themselves from Russia and the USSR? What happened in the last decade that they would now swing back to Russia?
- PeterStuer 11mo ago
  They discovered that just like under 'communism', in the 'west' not everyone gets the life of the top 10%.
- jijijijij 11mo ago
  For context, it's important to keep in mind the population density in former DDR regions is very low. Young people often flee towards bigger liberal cities, as soon as possible. Pronounced in eastern Germany, the AfD is a national problem. In short: Propaganda. Germany is a major target of Russian influence. The AfD itself is heavily funded by Russia. There is no "old love" situation, Russia isn't representing socialist ideals or anything. (Russia wasn't loved back then either, btw.) Quite frankly, AfD followers often are just misled and detached from reason (e.g. objectively voting against their own interests). If you talk to them they often entertain some really fucking wild ideas and conspiratorial thinking. Of all parties in Germany, AfD has probably the most successful social media campaign, especially on TikTok. Mind you, the AfD's "not our problem"/"do nothing" position is aiding Russia in Ukraine. It's easy to put a nationalist/antisemitic spin on it. Now, the leftist party is another story. There you find a completely misguided "old love" base, which is dogmatically "pacifist" and anti-NATO. They really should check the values Russia represents these days...

quickthrowman 11mo ago

I would assume it will mostly be youths from the former GDR, which is extremely visible on economic maps, for instance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_states_by_GRDP_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_states_by_GRDP_... Former East Germany is lit up in red, similar to how you could see the old borders on night satellite photos from the color temperature of the outdoor lights in West and East Germany, which was most easily noticed in Berlin (article has a picture from 2012): https://kottke.org/19/11/the-berlin-wall-of-light https://kottke.org/19/11/the-berlin-wall-of-light The outdoor lights will eventually all be LED, which will erase the old border from the night skies.

wtcactus 10mo ago

> “ A mix of all will end up obviously in a disaster”. I totally disagree. Everywhere I look, I’m being told that “diversity is our strength”. This will surely be the most awesome military in the history of human civilization.

khelavastr 10mo ago

Easy question: all of the above. National unity is more valuable than ever.