4 ms·

The GrapheneOS obsession with picking a fight with everyone else is the most unfortunate part of the project.

bubblethink 11mo ago
“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.”
- udev4096 11mo ago
  [flagged]
  - ItsHarper 11mo ago
    I think they're agreeing with you
RGBCube 11mo ago
That's actually one of the best parts.
- timschumi 11mo ago
  Not for the ones on the receiving end.
  - strcat 11mo ago
    Being on the receiving end of valid, technical criticism in response to making misleading claims about GrapheneOS for falsely marketing products is their own choice. It's certainly a lot nicer than being on the GrapheneOS team heavily targeted by libel, bullying and harassment from those groups. Here's a recent example of the founder of /e/ and Murena linking to libelous harassment content on a conspiracy site, which links to a Kiwi Farms style character assassination video from someone friends with neo-nazis: https://archive.is/SWXPJ https://archive.is/SWXPJ https://archive.is/n4yTO https://archive.is/n4yTO Check out the site for yourself. The linked video is plainly filled with extraordinarily dishonest claims that are widely disproven. Copperhead is losing the legal battle very badly and should end up paying our years of legal expenses soon. Other groups attacking us can look forward to similar losses in court when our attention moves to them. Years of libel, bullying and harassment has consequences.
Itoldmyselfso 11mo ago
It doesn't seem to be the entire project, just one dev (afaik) that's quite outspoken and does make accusations that they don't always seem to back with evidence. Also insofar as the actual "product" remains completely untouched by any spats it shouldn't be a dealbreaker for anyone wanting to use GOS, but of course it isn't ideal to have any drama attached.
- worldsavior 11mo ago
  He never shows any evidence. Always accusing without any images/links. I love the project but it looks not normal.
  - deleted 11mo ago
    [deleted]
  - strcat 11mo ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46185361 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46185361
    - worldsavior 11mo ago
      Alright, didn't mean to make any libelous claims, it's just so it happens I never saw any evidence from your accusations. I already know these people are the worst, but it would be helpful if in any of your posts you would share some evidence like you did right now.
      - strcat 11mo ago
        Where's the evidence for the accusations being made towards me? No need to answer: fabrications and spin on Kiwi Farms and 2 Kiwi Farms adjacent videos on YouTube, which are regularly referenced and directly linked to by people involved with multiple companies and open source projects in the space. Here's a very recent example of the founder of /e/ and Murena once again linking to libelous harassment/bullying content, this time on a blatant neo-nazi conspiracy site: https://archive.is/SWXPJ https://archive.is/SWXPJ https://archive.is/n4yTO https://archive.is/n4yTO He's done this many times before and has directly spread Kiwi Farms harassment content himself from his personal accounts along with using the /e/ and Murena accounts for similar attacks. We never picked any fight with /e/ or Murena, they spent years spreading misinformation about GrapheneOS to mislead people into buying highly insecure products and services. They're enraged by us countering that misinformation as we did here with verifiable, accurate information with third party sources you should read too from Divested Computing, Mike Kuketz, their own forum (sending sensitive data to OpenAI without consent and falsely claiming it's anonymized when questioned) and elsewhere: https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/24134-devices-lacking-standard-privacysecurity-patches-and-protections-arent-private https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/24134-devices-lacking-stand... What is it you think hasn't been adequately proven? Our chat rooms, forum, etc. are being endlessly raided with CSAM, gore and harassment towards our team. Our team is being swatted and threatened on a regular basis. We're having endless libel and bullying directed towards us including these baseless claims that we're insane. What the people attacking us can point to is that they think our replies debunking it and defending ourselves are too verbose which somehow makes us insane and delusional. Us banning people from the Techlore and /e/ communities raiding our rooms pretending to be users initially then attacking our team with harassment or posting CSAM is somehow us being toxic rather than those communities being toxic. It's not them being targeted with harassment. It's not them having fabricated stories spread about them. It's you folks making accusations without evidence which simply reference a bunch of harassment content proving what we're saying is true. Linking to that harassment content proves people are doing it since most people can see it for what it is: a bunch of poorly made lies and misrepresentations to target someone with harassment.
Avamander 11mo ago
When have they been wrong?
strcat 11mo ago
The attacks on GrapheneOS from Copperhead and their supporters including within other projects were not a fight we picked. You're pushing a false narrative in support of years of libel, bullying and harassment towards us. Your project's team has regularly engaged in very underhanded attacks on ours despite us never doing anything to you. We have archives of it. Here's an example of what you support by the founder of Murena and /e/ who you support linking to libel and harassment on a neo-nazi conspiracy site (check out the site for yourself): https://archive.is/SWXPJ https://archive.is/SWXPJ https://archive.is/n4yTO https://archive.is/n4yTO The video that's linked there is an extraordinarily dishonest character assassination video filled with very blatantly false claims. The person who posted the video is unsurprisingly friends with a bunch of neo-nazis. Copperhead failed in their attempt at filing a baseless lawsuit against us and is on track to pay years of our legal fees. A typical approach you folks take is linking to Kiwi Farms adjacent harassment content based on fabricated stories and spin targeting myself and the rest of our team. One of the two main people orchestrating harassment towards us has an identity verified Kiwi Farms account and was the one who involved them in targeting me (kiwifarms . st/members/larossmann.132201/).
- singpolyma3 11mo ago
  Listing a bunch of projects I've not heard of and attacking me for "supporting" them is exactly the kind of behaviour I'm talking about :P
  - strcat 11mo ago
    GrapheneOS did not attack you or your project. The same goes for the people you're supporting who chose to attack us for years and then feigned being victims when we finally began defending ourselves. We'll defend ourselves from the libel from your project too. You're choosing to make manipulative attacks on it without an actual basis to try to pile on the existing ones, while feigning ignorance of all of that. The chat logs show you aren't actually ignorant of it.
    - singpolyma3 11mo ago
      No one is attacking anyone. I feel like you're talking about someone else?
grokx 11mo ago
That is also my feeling, at least from a part of the GrapheneOS community. I have seen them despising and bullying /e/OS, Debian, F-Droid, the Linux kernel... Too bad for this project, that is amazing, to have such toxic folks. Open source communities should help each other, and work together, not fight.
- tranq_cassowary 11mo ago
  You can't equate actions from a part of the community with actions by the project. If you would see any bigotry by a GrapheneOS community member, please report it to the moderators. Bullying, toxcity and misinfo are not allowed. Action will be taken. I havent noticed a lot of that in the community myself, in which im very active. Its exceptional in my eyes. Common though is technical criticism on other projects when people ask advice about it or want a comparison with alternative. Also common is people being fed up by harassment by other projects. The founder of /e/OS repeatdely attacks GrapheneOS in random internet threads that are only mention GrapheneOS. This contrast with the approach of GrapheneOS where they will only do a comparison with /e/OS in reponse to posts where both are mentioned and compared by others. Or, in reponse of wrong comparisons in the media or harassment (personal attacks etc.) stemming from them. F-Droid does also have some maintainers that engaged in personal attacks against the GOS founder. And anyway what do you expect the project to do if people ask whether to get apps from Play Store or F-Droid? Pretend there is no technical security difference? If people ask questions, the project and community try to inform. There is big conflict with Debian or Linux kernel at all. They also dont mismarket themselves or spread misinfo about GrapheneOS. They are concerned though that both heavily used projects lack a security focus.
  - tranq_cassowary 11mo ago
    *There is no big conflict with Debian or Linux kernel at all. (Typo)

“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.”

udev4096 11mo ago
[flagged]
- ItsHarper 11mo ago
  I think they're agreeing with you

RGBCube 11mo ago

That's actually one of the best parts.

timschumi 11mo ago
Not for the ones on the receiving end.
- strcat 11mo ago
  Being on the receiving end of valid, technical criticism in response to making misleading claims about GrapheneOS for falsely marketing products is their own choice. It's certainly a lot nicer than being on the GrapheneOS team heavily targeted by libel, bullying and harassment from those groups. Here's a recent example of the founder of /e/ and Murena linking to libelous harassment content on a conspiracy site, which links to a Kiwi Farms style character assassination video from someone friends with neo-nazis: https://archive.is/SWXPJ https://archive.is/SWXPJ https://archive.is/n4yTO https://archive.is/n4yTO Check out the site for yourself. The linked video is plainly filled with extraordinarily dishonest claims that are widely disproven. Copperhead is losing the legal battle very badly and should end up paying our years of legal expenses soon. Other groups attacking us can look forward to similar losses in court when our attention moves to them. Years of libel, bullying and harassment has consequences.

Itoldmyselfso 11mo ago

It doesn't seem to be the entire project, just one dev (afaik) that's quite outspoken and does make accusations that they don't always seem to back with evidence. Also insofar as the actual "product" remains completely untouched by any spats it shouldn't be a dealbreaker for anyone wanting to use GOS, but of course it isn't ideal to have any drama attached.

worldsavior 11mo ago
He never shows any evidence. Always accusing without any images/links. I love the project but it looks not normal.
- deleted 11mo ago
  [deleted]
- strcat 11mo ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46185361 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46185361
  - worldsavior 11mo ago
    Alright, didn't mean to make any libelous claims, it's just so it happens I never saw any evidence from your accusations. I already know these people are the worst, but it would be helpful if in any of your posts you would share some evidence like you did right now.
    - strcat 11mo ago
      Where's the evidence for the accusations being made towards me? No need to answer: fabrications and spin on Kiwi Farms and 2 Kiwi Farms adjacent videos on YouTube, which are regularly referenced and directly linked to by people involved with multiple companies and open source projects in the space. Here's a very recent example of the founder of /e/ and Murena once again linking to libelous harassment/bullying content, this time on a blatant neo-nazi conspiracy site: https://archive.is/SWXPJ https://archive.is/SWXPJ https://archive.is/n4yTO https://archive.is/n4yTO He's done this many times before and has directly spread Kiwi Farms harassment content himself from his personal accounts along with using the /e/ and Murena accounts for similar attacks. We never picked any fight with /e/ or Murena, they spent years spreading misinformation about GrapheneOS to mislead people into buying highly insecure products and services. They're enraged by us countering that misinformation as we did here with verifiable, accurate information with third party sources you should read too from Divested Computing, Mike Kuketz, their own forum (sending sensitive data to OpenAI without consent and falsely claiming it's anonymized when questioned) and elsewhere: https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/24134-devices-lacking-standard-privacysecurity-patches-and-protections-arent-private https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/24134-devices-lacking-stand... What is it you think hasn't been adequately proven? Our chat rooms, forum, etc. are being endlessly raided with CSAM, gore and harassment towards our team. Our team is being swatted and threatened on a regular basis. We're having endless libel and bullying directed towards us including these baseless claims that we're insane. What the people attacking us can point to is that they think our replies debunking it and defending ourselves are too verbose which somehow makes us insane and delusional. Us banning people from the Techlore and /e/ communities raiding our rooms pretending to be users initially then attacking our team with harassment or posting CSAM is somehow us being toxic rather than those communities being toxic. It's not them being targeted with harassment. It's not them having fabricated stories spread about them. It's you folks making accusations without evidence which simply reference a bunch of harassment content proving what we're saying is true. Linking to that harassment content proves people are doing it since most people can see it for what it is: a bunch of poorly made lies and misrepresentations to target someone with harassment.

Avamander 11mo ago

When have they been wrong?

strcat 11mo ago

The attacks on GrapheneOS from Copperhead and their supporters including within other projects were not a fight we picked. You're pushing a false narrative in support of years of libel, bullying and harassment towards us. Your project's team has regularly engaged in very underhanded attacks on ours despite us never doing anything to you. We have archives of it. Here's an example of what you support by the founder of Murena and /e/ who you support linking to libel and harassment on a neo-nazi conspiracy site (check out the site for yourself): https://archive.is/SWXPJ https://archive.is/SWXPJ https://archive.is/n4yTO https://archive.is/n4yTO The video that's linked there is an extraordinarily dishonest character assassination video filled with very blatantly false claims. The person who posted the video is unsurprisingly friends with a bunch of neo-nazis. Copperhead failed in their attempt at filing a baseless lawsuit against us and is on track to pay years of our legal fees. A typical approach you folks take is linking to Kiwi Farms adjacent harassment content based on fabricated stories and spin targeting myself and the rest of our team. One of the two main people orchestrating harassment towards us has an identity verified Kiwi Farms account and was the one who involved them in targeting me (kiwifarms . st/members/larossmann.132201/).

singpolyma3 11mo ago
Listing a bunch of projects I've not heard of and attacking me for "supporting" them is exactly the kind of behaviour I'm talking about :P
- strcat 11mo ago
  GrapheneOS did not attack you or your project. The same goes for the people you're supporting who chose to attack us for years and then feigned being victims when we finally began defending ourselves. We'll defend ourselves from the libel from your project too. You're choosing to make manipulative attacks on it without an actual basis to try to pile on the existing ones, while feigning ignorance of all of that. The chat logs show you aren't actually ignorant of it.
  - singpolyma3 11mo ago
    No one is attacking anyone. I feel like you're talking about someone else?

grokx 11mo ago

That is also my feeling, at least from a part of the GrapheneOS community. I have seen them despising and bullying /e/OS, Debian, F-Droid, the Linux kernel... Too bad for this project, that is amazing, to have such toxic folks. Open source communities should help each other, and work together, not fight.

tranq_cassowary 11mo ago
You can't equate actions from a part of the community with actions by the project. If you would see any bigotry by a GrapheneOS community member, please report it to the moderators. Bullying, toxcity and misinfo are not allowed. Action will be taken. I havent noticed a lot of that in the community myself, in which im very active. Its exceptional in my eyes. Common though is technical criticism on other projects when people ask advice about it or want a comparison with alternative. Also common is people being fed up by harassment by other projects. The founder of /e/OS repeatdely attacks GrapheneOS in random internet threads that are only mention GrapheneOS. This contrast with the approach of GrapheneOS where they will only do a comparison with /e/OS in reponse to posts where both are mentioned and compared by others. Or, in reponse of wrong comparisons in the media or harassment (personal attacks etc.) stemming from them. F-Droid does also have some maintainers that engaged in personal attacks against the GOS founder. And anyway what do you expect the project to do if people ask whether to get apps from Play Store or F-Droid? Pretend there is no technical security difference? If people ask questions, the project and community try to inform. There is big conflict with Debian or Linux kernel at all. They also dont mismarket themselves or spread misinfo about GrapheneOS. They are concerned though that both heavily used projects lack a security focus.
- tranq_cassowary 11mo ago
  *There is no big conflict with Debian or Linux kernel at all. (Typo)