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Perl is a sysadmin language. There's "always" been this tension between sysadmins and developers. In my mind (developer back then) I'd amateur-psychoanalyze al

by lysace 11mo ago

Perl is a sysadmin language. There's "always" been this tension between sysadmins and developers. In my mind (developer back then) I'd amateur-psychoanalyze all of that nonsense as some kind of inferiority complex meant to preserve the self image. Needless complexity can be a feature! And now we are all developers!

MrDarcy 11mo ago
In the 2000’s Python was also a sysadmin language. Edit: But I see your point, Google SRE’s around the late 2000’s reached for Python more than Perl.
- lysace 11mo ago
  (90s) Yes, but it developed.
  - calmbonsai 11mo ago
    As someone who lived through that transition, we used Perl extensively to sysadmin ~30 Solaris and Irix workstations and it was superlative at that. At that time, Guido was still working at CNRI locally to us in Reston, VA and we had several discussions at the local Pyggies (Python User Group) on transitioning over to Python for that work. We were a (mostly) C++/Java shop, but Perl fit into all the other "crevices" beautifully. Python just didn't have enough library support for all of our "swiss-army chainsaw" demands. Still, it was very apparent at the time it would eventually get there and I was enamored with its "one right way" of doing things--even at the bytecode level.
- oncallthrow 11mo ago
  I think Perl is still more popular even today than Python as a sysadmin language. Late 2000s it certainly was. Maybe Google was different, but across the industry more widely Python was barely used, Perl was used everywhere.
  - lysace 11mo ago
    My experience: Sysadmin-driven companies (typically Sun-based) often used Perl. Developer-driven companies used other languages running on cheaper X86 Linux.
lo_zamoyski 11mo ago
> some kind of inferiority complex meant to preserve the self image Or, as the kids say, a flex, but without the sexy connotations. (Incidentally, I am also reminded of a great quote attributed to Morphy: "The ability to play chess is the sign of a gentleman. The ability to play chess well is the sign of a wasted life.")
- chihuahua 11mo ago
  That quote is not very convincing to me. Both parts of it are questionable. Just being able to play chess is not a very high bar at all. Most 6-year-olds can learn it in an hour. Are the Chess hustlers at Washington Square Park all Gentlemen? I don't see being able to play Chess well as any kind of deficiency. It could be that it's just someone's hobby. It doesn't have to mean they spiraled into madness, Bobby Fisher style. (I can play chess, but not well, so I personally don't care about either half of that quote as it applies to me)
  - hylaride 11mo ago
    The quote, if originally from Morphy, is from the 1800s, though. So it's the context of the quote that matters. Either way, it's not meant to be taken so literally!
  - astrange 11mo ago
    Morphy, who is probably the greatest chess player to ever live, would probably know.
lesostep 11mo ago
I think it's a sysadmin thing to have a little bit more wimsy in the code. Administrative work by nature leaves you a bit bored, if you do it right. So you sometimes pick something up just to play with. I can't speak about every sysad experience, but in mine a lot of scripts tend to be in a "make once, remember for ten years" category, and even a bit of creative naming can help a long way. Working with a larger codebase with "creative" code, on the other hand, is frustrating. And if you don't have to write code, you might as well go take a walk, "monitoring" isn't in your job description.

by lysace 11mo ago

MrDarcy 11mo ago

In the 2000’s Python was also a sysadmin language. Edit: But I see your point, Google SRE’s around the late 2000’s reached for Python more than Perl.

lysace 11mo ago
(90s) Yes, but it developed.
- calmbonsai 11mo ago
  As someone who lived through that transition, we used Perl extensively to sysadmin ~30 Solaris and Irix workstations and it was superlative at that. At that time, Guido was still working at CNRI locally to us in Reston, VA and we had several discussions at the local Pyggies (Python User Group) on transitioning over to Python for that work. We were a (mostly) C++/Java shop, but Perl fit into all the other "crevices" beautifully. Python just didn't have enough library support for all of our "swiss-army chainsaw" demands. Still, it was very apparent at the time it would eventually get there and I was enamored with its "one right way" of doing things--even at the bytecode level.
oncallthrow 11mo ago
I think Perl is still more popular even today than Python as a sysadmin language. Late 2000s it certainly was. Maybe Google was different, but across the industry more widely Python was barely used, Perl was used everywhere.
- lysace 11mo ago
  My experience: Sysadmin-driven companies (typically Sun-based) often used Perl. Developer-driven companies used other languages running on cheaper X86 Linux.

lo_zamoyski 11mo ago

> some kind of inferiority complex meant to preserve the self image Or, as the kids say, a flex, but without the sexy connotations. (Incidentally, I am also reminded of a great quote attributed to Morphy: "The ability to play chess is the sign of a gentleman. The ability to play chess well is the sign of a wasted life.")

chihuahua 11mo ago
That quote is not very convincing to me. Both parts of it are questionable. Just being able to play chess is not a very high bar at all. Most 6-year-olds can learn it in an hour. Are the Chess hustlers at Washington Square Park all Gentlemen? I don't see being able to play Chess well as any kind of deficiency. It could be that it's just someone's hobby. It doesn't have to mean they spiraled into madness, Bobby Fisher style. (I can play chess, but not well, so I personally don't care about either half of that quote as it applies to me)
- hylaride 11mo ago
  The quote, if originally from Morphy, is from the 1800s, though. So it's the context of the quote that matters. Either way, it's not meant to be taken so literally!
- astrange 11mo ago
  Morphy, who is probably the greatest chess player to ever live, would probably know.

lesostep 11mo ago

I think it's a sysadmin thing to have a little bit more wimsy in the code. Administrative work by nature leaves you a bit bored, if you do it right. So you sometimes pick something up just to play with. I can't speak about every sysad experience, but in mine a lot of scripts tend to be in a "make once, remember for ten years" category, and even a bit of creative naming can help a long way. Working with a larger codebase with "creative" code, on the other hand, is frustrating. And if you don't have to write code, you might as well go take a walk, "monitoring" isn't in your job description.