4 ms·

You're getting a lot of indirect responses. If you've ever tried to mod your android phone the answer is simple. Its google play services and hardware attestati

by cons0le 10mo ago

You're getting a lot of indirect responses. If you've ever tried to mod your android phone the answer is simple. Its google play services and hardware attestation for things like banking websites. Its really easy to make a custom rom but hard to do serious "real life" stuff; companies don't want to make it easy. To most regular users, if they cant download apps from the google play store, and they can't use venmo\cashapp, then the OS is dead in the water from day 1

SubiculumCode 10mo ago
Yeah but lots of phones you can't get ROMs for from a reputable source, and I sure as heck don't have the know how or time to build one, even if possible, which a lot of times is not due to locking down bootloaders, drivers, etc.
- AnthonyMouse 10mo ago
  But that has the same cause. When you buy a Windows PC, the first thing a lot of tech people will do is format it and put on a clean install of Windows without all of the OEM crapware, or in these days install Linux if grandma is just using email and Facebook anyway. If you try to do that on your Android device, your bank app is broken, most importantly not because of anything the alternate OS is doing wrong, which causes the vast majority of people to not want to do it even if it means suffering the OEM crapware, with no way for the alternative OS to fix it. And that in turn allows the OEMs to get away with locked bootloaders etc., because then they're not losing sales to a competitor that lets you remove the crapware when nobody can do it either way.
  - wafflemaker 10mo ago
    For me the bank app was working, but the electric scooter app didn't and that was it for me :( Damn e-scooters, can't live without them. But I still haven't contacted the support to ask them to verify phones in another way.
    - Zak 10mo ago
      Be sure to leave them a one-star review, and maybe name them here so others can do the same. Anyone who does that sort of crap deserves at least that tiny bit of punishment for it.
      - iberator 10mo ago
        You cant rate it without google play app playstore lol
        Zak 10mo ago
        You can if you have a Google account; Play Store has a web version.
        pstation 10mo ago
        Would they even allow you to rate an app that you have never installed?
        Zak 10mo ago
        Looks like it won't. Naming it publicly would allow those who have a Google-blessed Android device to rate it though.
      - wafflemaker 10mo ago
        The thing is they are the best e-scooters provider in town. They have fantastic support, few times agreed to my feature requests. They have very forgiving policy for when you forgot to lock the scooter and so on. I really believe that if I messaged them off season (when they work on the app, like now in winter), and suggested changing the way they attest phones, they would consider using the attestation that GOS can pass.
        Zak 10mo ago
        I think you're not asking for enough here. A scooter rental app does not need to attest phones. It doesn't even have a bad excuse for wanting to attest phones since payment information is surely stored server-side and it would be surprising if the scooters didn't have their own network connections and GPS trackers.
- abustamam 10mo ago
  Years ago I used to love playing around with roms on my phone on XDA and it worked OK. I don't know what folks use these days. But as recently as a few years ago I merely rooted my phone and I couldn't use a lot of apps, not just banking, but even some games. It's crazy how locked down the ecosystem is.
  - toni 10mo ago
    There are tools to make your device appear to every app as running in a non-rooted environment. Here[1] is a tutorial on how to bypass Google/Samsung Wallet detections. There are threads for different apps and it will quickly turn into a cat and mouse play when Playstore app itself updates, but as the phone is rooted, someone will continue to find a way to bypass attestations and will post a comment on Reddit or XDA explaining how to do it. [1] https://old.reddit.com/r/Magisk/comments/1lxbdpw/tutorial_general_guide_on_how_to_get_wallet/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Magisk/comments/1lxbdpw/tutorial_ge...
    - abustamam 10mo ago
      Thanks! I'll look into that next time I decide to root my phone.
charcircuit 10mo ago
This just shows that the barrier of entry of a new phone OS is more than $0. You can pay app developers to port their apps off of play services, you can pay developers to add support for your attestation keys. Considering how many billions of dollars Android makes for Google, there is a room for a return on investment for an alternate OS to enable investments into a new OS.
- zelphirkalt 10mo ago
  How much do you want to pay? Who will be paying? Big companies will probably laugh such an effort out of the room, nay, they will not even let you into the room to talk with them.
  - charcircuit 10mo ago
    $10 million dollars per app. The creator of the new OS will pay. If you offer enough cash they will stop laughing.
    - bossyTeacher 10mo ago
      Where do you think the creators will get this money from? Look at existing ones, they are cash strapped as they are, paying a million to get an app over beyond their budget, let alone 10 million
      - charcircuit 10mo ago
        Investors. Trying to become a new competitor in an established industry often takes a large amount of capital. If you tried to create a business to compete in another industry, you'd also need to find investors or other forms of financing if you are cash strapped.
        bossyTeacher 10mo ago
        Investors are not dumb. The current duopoly is entrenched and merely asking for money to create an alternative os won't give you investment. Microsoft and Nokia among others failed big time even though they had plenty of money and competing operating systems. Investors give you money if they think you will be successful and return a multiple of that investment within a reasonable timeframe. You need to solve the 3 player problem before you even ask for money: getting device manufacturers in even though you have no operating system, no devs and no users, getting devs even though you have no operating system, no devs, no users and no devices, getting users even though you have no device, no operating, no devs and no apps. You need an MVP that shows promise towards all the above if you seek money. This is like taxi on demand app business or the takeaway delivery business but with more players and with a higher minimum funds requirement. Plus the fact that unlike taxi apps or takeaway apps, choosing an operating system is a zero sum game so you are competing in the most direct way against well known and well established brands like iOs and Android who are funded by the richest companies on earth. Unlike Uber vs Lyft, where a user can install both and use both, your battlefield only has one victor. And given that other companies with more funding that you will ever see in your lifetime still failed, you have a virtually impossible task of explaining (before they even consider giving you a single cent) how you are going to be able to capture market share with your own solution to the 3 player problem. Nokia and Microsoft only understood this right at the end: to avoid losing in the mobile os market, you need an ecosystem. Miss any of the elements and it all crumbles. Read Elop's memorable Burning Ship note on the final days of Nokia.

by cons0le 10mo ago

SubiculumCode 10mo ago

Yeah but lots of phones you can't get ROMs for from a reputable source, and I sure as heck don't have the know how or time to build one, even if possible, which a lot of times is not due to locking down bootloaders, drivers, etc.

AnthonyMouse 10mo ago
But that has the same cause. When you buy a Windows PC, the first thing a lot of tech people will do is format it and put on a clean install of Windows without all of the OEM crapware, or in these days install Linux if grandma is just using email and Facebook anyway. If you try to do that on your Android device, your bank app is broken, most importantly not because of anything the alternate OS is doing wrong, which causes the vast majority of people to not want to do it even if it means suffering the OEM crapware, with no way for the alternative OS to fix it. And that in turn allows the OEMs to get away with locked bootloaders etc., because then they're not losing sales to a competitor that lets you remove the crapware when nobody can do it either way.
- wafflemaker 10mo ago
  For me the bank app was working, but the electric scooter app didn't and that was it for me :( Damn e-scooters, can't live without them. But I still haven't contacted the support to ask them to verify phones in another way.
  - Zak 10mo ago
    Be sure to leave them a one-star review, and maybe name them here so others can do the same. Anyone who does that sort of crap deserves at least that tiny bit of punishment for it.
    - iberator 10mo ago
      You cant rate it without google play app playstore lol
      - Zak 10mo ago
        You can if you have a Google account; Play Store has a web version.
        pstation 10mo ago
        Would they even allow you to rate an app that you have never installed?
        Zak 10mo ago
        Looks like it won't. Naming it publicly would allow those who have a Google-blessed Android device to rate it though.
    - wafflemaker 10mo ago
      The thing is they are the best e-scooters provider in town. They have fantastic support, few times agreed to my feature requests. They have very forgiving policy for when you forgot to lock the scooter and so on. I really believe that if I messaged them off season (when they work on the app, like now in winter), and suggested changing the way they attest phones, they would consider using the attestation that GOS can pass.
      - Zak 10mo ago
        I think you're not asking for enough here. A scooter rental app does not need to attest phones. It doesn't even have a bad excuse for wanting to attest phones since payment information is surely stored server-side and it would be surprising if the scooters didn't have their own network connections and GPS trackers.
abustamam 10mo ago
Years ago I used to love playing around with roms on my phone on XDA and it worked OK. I don't know what folks use these days. But as recently as a few years ago I merely rooted my phone and I couldn't use a lot of apps, not just banking, but even some games. It's crazy how locked down the ecosystem is.
- toni 10mo ago
  There are tools to make your device appear to every app as running in a non-rooted environment. Here[1] is a tutorial on how to bypass Google/Samsung Wallet detections. There are threads for different apps and it will quickly turn into a cat and mouse play when Playstore app itself updates, but as the phone is rooted, someone will continue to find a way to bypass attestations and will post a comment on Reddit or XDA explaining how to do it. [1] https://old.reddit.com/r/Magisk/comments/1lxbdpw/tutorial_general_guide_on_how_to_get_wallet/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Magisk/comments/1lxbdpw/tutorial_ge...
  - abustamam 10mo ago
    Thanks! I'll look into that next time I decide to root my phone.

charcircuit 10mo ago

This just shows that the barrier of entry of a new phone OS is more than $0. You can pay app developers to port their apps off of play services, you can pay developers to add support for your attestation keys. Considering how many billions of dollars Android makes for Google, there is a room for a return on investment for an alternate OS to enable investments into a new OS.

zelphirkalt 10mo ago
How much do you want to pay? Who will be paying? Big companies will probably laugh such an effort out of the room, nay, they will not even let you into the room to talk with them.
- charcircuit 10mo ago
  $10 million dollars per app. The creator of the new OS will pay. If you offer enough cash they will stop laughing.
  - bossyTeacher 10mo ago
    Where do you think the creators will get this money from? Look at existing ones, they are cash strapped as they are, paying a million to get an app over beyond their budget, let alone 10 million
    - charcircuit 10mo ago
      Investors. Trying to become a new competitor in an established industry often takes a large amount of capital. If you tried to create a business to compete in another industry, you'd also need to find investors or other forms of financing if you are cash strapped.
      - bossyTeacher 10mo ago
        Investors are not dumb. The current duopoly is entrenched and merely asking for money to create an alternative os won't give you investment. Microsoft and Nokia among others failed big time even though they had plenty of money and competing operating systems. Investors give you money if they think you will be successful and return a multiple of that investment within a reasonable timeframe. You need to solve the 3 player problem before you even ask for money: getting device manufacturers in even though you have no operating system, no devs and no users, getting devs even though you have no operating system, no devs, no users and no devices, getting users even though you have no device, no operating, no devs and no apps. You need an MVP that shows promise towards all the above if you seek money. This is like taxi on demand app business or the takeaway delivery business but with more players and with a higher minimum funds requirement. Plus the fact that unlike taxi apps or takeaway apps, choosing an operating system is a zero sum game so you are competing in the most direct way against well known and well established brands like iOs and Android who are funded by the richest companies on earth. Unlike Uber vs Lyft, where a user can install both and use both, your battlefield only has one victor. And given that other companies with more funding that you will ever see in your lifetime still failed, you have a virtually impossible task of explaining (before they even consider giving you a single cent) how you are going to be able to capture market share with your own solution to the 3 player problem. Nokia and Microsoft only understood this right at the end: to avoid losing in the mobile os market, you need an ecosystem. Miss any of the elements and it all crumbles. Read Elop's memorable Burning Ship note on the final days of Nokia.