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Err… is there any question that the US is trying to slow down China’s high-tech computer development? I thought that was our open goal. Countries decided the e

Err… is there any question that the US is trying to slow down China’s high-tech computer development? I thought that was our open goal. Countries decided the extent to which they’d like to engage in free trade together. It is a knob that we’d hope our leaders would turn strategically. (Regardless of whether or not we think our leaders actually are doing a good job of it…).

embedding-shape 11mo ago
> I thought that was our open goal. Is the goal also to hurt South Korean businesses and all businesses in the world, just to "pwn China" basically?
- bee_rider 11mo ago
  We’re probably also spurring China to develop more independently. I don’t think it is a good plan, just an unconfusing one.
  - dmix 11mo ago
    On paper it can sound rational. In reality you look at stuff like cars, for only so long people will tolerate buying a car for $60k when other countries, whom you are also competing with, get buy similar cars for $10-20k from China. Those same vehicles are used to boost productivity in your own domestic industries. There is always a ton of risk involved with protectionism. Primarily whether your taxpayer-subsidized domestic jobs and hypothetical national security risk significantly outweighs all the very real economic costs.
    - rootusrootus 11mo ago
      > buying a car for $60k when other countries, whom you are also competing with, get buy similar cars for $10-20k from China I'd love to hear your examples of this happening. For $22K you can get a BYD Dolphin Surf in Europe. And that's a pretty small car. What are you paying $60K for in the US that's the same size? Maybe let's try a different match up. The BYD Atto 3 seems to start around 40K in Europe. It's smaller than a Model Y, and people say it is slightly lower in market position, but close enough. The Model Y starts at around 40K as well. Are the comparisons between expensive US cars (remember the average is just above 50K, and plenty of perfectly good cars like a Honda Civic can be had for half that) and Chinese cars in China?
      - jpgvm 11mo ago
        Atto 3 is $19.3k USD in Thailand. So it's really just tariffs and taxes making it that expensive elsewhere.
        rootusrootus 11mo ago
        Right, so we are never going to see it for 20 grand in the US. Maybe because of tariffs and taxes, as you say, or maybe just because BYD isn't going to set the price at 20K in a market with 10x the average income.
        overfeed 11mo ago
        > Right, so we are never going to see it for 20 grand in the US To be fair, @dmix explicitly mentioned the $20k price was for other countries
        rootusrootus 11mo ago
        That is a fair point. But then it just reveals that the comparison was contrived from the outset and there was no point to be made. It has never been the case that products in different markets were priced in coordination. The price is always whatever the market will bear, it has zero relationship to the cost to produce unless the market has a lot of competition.
        torginus 11mo ago
        I read that's not really the case - there's a bunch of equipment on EU-spec (and some other market) BYDs that comes from EU vendors such as Bosch. It additionally has a completely different AC unit as the kind of refrigerant BYD uses in China is illegal in the EU. I'm not saying it justifies the price difference, but there are changes between the cars.
        jpgvm 11mo ago
        The BYDs exported to Europe are made in Thailand. So no, they are the Euro spec car.
- lovich 11mo ago
  "America First" as an ideology means that question is never considered
- machomaster 11mo ago
  What better way to hurt the designated enemy and make others bare the cost? Trump's America First in practice relies on a near-sided and overly simplistic understanding of the world (Win-lose, whatever is benefitting others must be a hinderance to the USA). Hence fighting the tariff wars against allies (Canada, Eu). Hence destroying Nato' credibility that was carefully built for 70 years. Hence ceasing to be Ukraine's ally (but continuing to be a trade partner, that sells weapons as long as Europe is paying). Hence helping Putin. Hence instigating problems with Taiwan if that means that TSMC will move some manufacturing to the USA. It's a really miopic view, but at least on their part the behavior is intentional (consequences, on the other hand, are surprise for them).
  - popol12 11mo ago
    « to bear the cost », not « to bare the cost »
    - machomaster 11mo ago
      Thank you. I was also wondering which one was correct, but I didn't have the opportunity to check it, so I went with my gut feeling. Thank you again for your help.
- FuckButtons 11mo ago
  That’s more or less how a trade war works, yes. Obviously, it’s not just Korean dram manufacturers that have been or will be the only collateral damage.
  - ahartmetz 11mo ago
    Is it collateral damage if they get sky-high prices for their products instead of a smaller amount for the production equipment? The US thing seems like a convenient excuse of sorts for cartel behavior.

embedding-shape 11mo ago

> I thought that was our open goal. Is the goal also to hurt South Korean businesses and all businesses in the world, just to "pwn China" basically?

bee_rider 11mo ago
We’re probably also spurring China to develop more independently. I don’t think it is a good plan, just an unconfusing one.
- dmix 11mo ago
  On paper it can sound rational. In reality you look at stuff like cars, for only so long people will tolerate buying a car for $60k when other countries, whom you are also competing with, get buy similar cars for $10-20k from China. Those same vehicles are used to boost productivity in your own domestic industries. There is always a ton of risk involved with protectionism. Primarily whether your taxpayer-subsidized domestic jobs and hypothetical national security risk significantly outweighs all the very real economic costs.
  - rootusrootus 11mo ago
    > buying a car for $60k when other countries, whom you are also competing with, get buy similar cars for $10-20k from China I'd love to hear your examples of this happening. For $22K you can get a BYD Dolphin Surf in Europe. And that's a pretty small car. What are you paying $60K for in the US that's the same size? Maybe let's try a different match up. The BYD Atto 3 seems to start around 40K in Europe. It's smaller than a Model Y, and people say it is slightly lower in market position, but close enough. The Model Y starts at around 40K as well. Are the comparisons between expensive US cars (remember the average is just above 50K, and plenty of perfectly good cars like a Honda Civic can be had for half that) and Chinese cars in China?
    - jpgvm 11mo ago
      Atto 3 is $19.3k USD in Thailand. So it's really just tariffs and taxes making it that expensive elsewhere.
      - rootusrootus 11mo ago
        Right, so we are never going to see it for 20 grand in the US. Maybe because of tariffs and taxes, as you say, or maybe just because BYD isn't going to set the price at 20K in a market with 10x the average income.
        overfeed 11mo ago
        > Right, so we are never going to see it for 20 grand in the US To be fair, @dmix explicitly mentioned the $20k price was for other countries
        rootusrootus 11mo ago
        That is a fair point. But then it just reveals that the comparison was contrived from the outset and there was no point to be made. It has never been the case that products in different markets were priced in coordination. The price is always whatever the market will bear, it has zero relationship to the cost to produce unless the market has a lot of competition.
      - torginus 11mo ago
        I read that's not really the case - there's a bunch of equipment on EU-spec (and some other market) BYDs that comes from EU vendors such as Bosch. It additionally has a completely different AC unit as the kind of refrigerant BYD uses in China is illegal in the EU. I'm not saying it justifies the price difference, but there are changes between the cars.
        jpgvm 11mo ago
        The BYDs exported to Europe are made in Thailand. So no, they are the Euro spec car.
lovich 11mo ago
"America First" as an ideology means that question is never considered
machomaster 11mo ago
What better way to hurt the designated enemy and make others bare the cost? Trump's America First in practice relies on a near-sided and overly simplistic understanding of the world (Win-lose, whatever is benefitting others must be a hinderance to the USA). Hence fighting the tariff wars against allies (Canada, Eu). Hence destroying Nato' credibility that was carefully built for 70 years. Hence ceasing to be Ukraine's ally (but continuing to be a trade partner, that sells weapons as long as Europe is paying). Hence helping Putin. Hence instigating problems with Taiwan if that means that TSMC will move some manufacturing to the USA. It's a really miopic view, but at least on their part the behavior is intentional (consequences, on the other hand, are surprise for them).
- popol12 11mo ago
  « to bear the cost », not « to bare the cost »
  - machomaster 11mo ago
    Thank you. I was also wondering which one was correct, but I didn't have the opportunity to check it, so I went with my gut feeling. Thank you again for your help.
FuckButtons 11mo ago
That’s more or less how a trade war works, yes. Obviously, it’s not just Korean dram manufacturers that have been or will be the only collateral damage.
- ahartmetz 11mo ago
  Is it collateral damage if they get sky-high prices for their products instead of a smaller amount for the production equipment? The US thing seems like a convenient excuse of sorts for cartel behavior.