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Wow, didn't realize they were sponsoring white supremacists. I've bought a framework 13 in the past and believe in their mission, but I don't think I can contin

Wow, didn't realize they were sponsoring white supremacists. I've bought a framework 13 in the past and believe in their mission, but I don't think I can continue being a customer. Oh well.

dangus 10mo ago
This is what the people who are against "cancel culture" are trying to say (although, a lot of those people are still wrong and suck for other reasons): you basically got brief, out of context second-hand information and immediately jumped to the conclusion to boycott this company. I think it's worth reading what the CEO has to say about it: https://community.frame.work/t/framework-supporting-far-right-racists/75986/2 https://community.frame.work/t/framework-supporting-far-righ... Personally I don't get the impression that Framework is endorsing a particular view, nor are they directly sponsoring a specific individual or their views. It becomes even more difficult when most of these open source projects aren't a one-person endeavor, even if they happen to have a single individual at the helm.
- deleted 10mo ago
  [deleted]
- konmok 10mo ago
  > Personally I don't get the impression that Framework is endorsing a particular view, nor are they directly sponsoring a specific individual or their views. I agree. However, I do think that Framework is taking a particularly cowardly stance by refusing to acknowledge community concerns, and I think that kind of behavior is exactly how far-right groups gain power in tech spaces. When one group just wants to live in peace, and another group wants to make the first group disappear, organizations that don't distinguish between the two ultimately drive out the peaceful group.
  - dangus 10mo ago
    I agree that your take is a very real thing. At the same time, I think there's a somewhat valid space for the psychology of this response. If I use Harry Potter as an example, I think Harry Potter fans fall in a handful of camps: 1. Agrees with JK Rowling on her anti-trans rhetoric 2. Grew up loving Harry Potter and detests JK Rowling's views, possibly to the point of a boycott 3. Has never heard of any of the controversy and is blissfully ignorant 4. Is aware of the controversy but never signed up for that discussion in the first place and is just here for wizard fiction, wishes the controversy never existed. I think the CEO of Framework is essentially going for #4 here, and I am quite mixed on whether that standpoint is enabling of problematic people or not. I can understand arguments both ways. For the role of a CEO, in this day and age, taking a polarized position does have the possibility of alienating half of your customer base, essentially a no-win scenario. #4 is also mixed with a sprinkle of "Sometimes saying too much and engaging too much in the argument is your own undoing and digging your own grave." Often CEOs that say nothing end up with better outcomes than those who take an active stance on issues. I can totally recognize that #4 is objectively more cowardly and less principled than #2, but I also don't know that we can expect 100% of generally good people to be freedom fighters.
    - konmok 10mo ago
      Yeah, that's a good breakdown. I mean, he definitely brought this on himself by leaning so hard into Omarchy in the first place, but maybe he was just ignorant of DHH's views and thought that was a "neutral" thing to do. In any case, I think it's important for consumers to confront companies when they pull stunts like this. Also, I'm not certain that #4-type CEOs actually have better outcomes - maybe in the short term, but when the creeping technofascism becomes more obvious, that causes real problems (see e.g. NixOS, Tesla)
    - zozzle 10mo ago
      JKR's views are pro-women, not anti-trans. The negative impact on women and girls is the reason why she's talking about this at all.
      - dangus 10mo ago
        “AH’s views are pro-Germany, not anti-Jew. The negative impact on Germany is the reason why she's talking about this at all.”
        DANmode 10mo ago
        I don’t have a strong position in this chat, but you should know what you did there is such a fallacy there’s a name for it.
        dangus 10mo ago
        It’s a fun one, though, because JKR’s whole life and works involve strong themes surrounding eugenics. So it’s really not that far of a stretch to make this association in her case. In her books the wizards fight against wizard Hitler and his eugenic holocaust. In real life, she engages in her own form of eugenic crusade where she believes the sex organs you are born with define your personality, identity, and your criminal tendencies.
        zozzle 10mo ago
        JKR has never advocated violence, never denied anyone's humanity, and never called for any group to be eradicated. Hitler did all of those things on an industrial scale. What on earth compelled you to equate the most evil mass-murderer of the 20th century with a children's author and feminist who says sex is real and matters for women's rights and safety?
- DetroitThrow 10mo ago
  So they're not sponsoring Omarchy sure, but that the CEO doesn't really respond to the parts where they've advertised Omarchy repeatedly is enough for me to close my wallet going forward. For me, this is a cut and dry issue and you don't have to endorse white supremacy to make it clear you don't have many issues with engaging white supremacists. DHH has said things beyond the pale, that go as far to say that people like me are not welcome in spaces he tours, not because of my actions but instead my skin color. Framework can flirt with his projects if they want to. I just won't buy their products going forward, and it sounds like they're fine with that. Idrc if it's seen as contributing to cancel culture.
  - dangus 10mo ago
    I can appreciate that you informed yourself well on the issue and weren't just making a knee-jerk reaction like I originally suspected based on your first comment's brevity.
  - throwawaypath 10mo ago
    >DHH has said things beyond the pale Such as? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. >that go as far to say that people like me are not welcome in spaces he tours, not because of my actions but instead my skin color. Citation needed. Direct links to quotes where he says specific races/skin colors are not welcome.
    - konmok 10mo ago
      Read "As I Remember London", and put on your reading comprehension hat. If you need help, try this article: https://jakelazaroff.com/words/dhh-is-way-worse-than-i-thought/ https://jakelazaroff.com/words/dhh-is-way-worse-than-i-thoug... DHH is clearly talking about people of color in London, and he's clearly expressing approval for Tommy Robinson. If you won't acknowledge that, you're either oblivious or racist. I hope it's the former.
      - deleted 10mo ago
        [deleted]

Wow, didn't realize they were sponsoring white supremacists. I've bought a framework 13 in the past and believe in their mission, but I don't think I can continue being a customer. Oh well.

dangus 10mo ago

This is what the people who are against "cancel culture" are trying to say (although, a lot of those people are still wrong and suck for other reasons): you basically got brief, out of context second-hand information and immediately jumped to the conclusion to boycott this company. I think it's worth reading what the CEO has to say about it: https://community.frame.work/t/framework-supporting-far-right-racists/75986/2 https://community.frame.work/t/framework-supporting-far-righ... Personally I don't get the impression that Framework is endorsing a particular view, nor are they directly sponsoring a specific individual or their views. It becomes even more difficult when most of these open source projects aren't a one-person endeavor, even if they happen to have a single individual at the helm.

deleted 10mo ago
[deleted]
konmok 10mo ago
> Personally I don't get the impression that Framework is endorsing a particular view, nor are they directly sponsoring a specific individual or their views. I agree. However, I do think that Framework is taking a particularly cowardly stance by refusing to acknowledge community concerns, and I think that kind of behavior is exactly how far-right groups gain power in tech spaces. When one group just wants to live in peace, and another group wants to make the first group disappear, organizations that don't distinguish between the two ultimately drive out the peaceful group.
- dangus 10mo ago
  I agree that your take is a very real thing. At the same time, I think there's a somewhat valid space for the psychology of this response. If I use Harry Potter as an example, I think Harry Potter fans fall in a handful of camps: 1. Agrees with JK Rowling on her anti-trans rhetoric 2. Grew up loving Harry Potter and detests JK Rowling's views, possibly to the point of a boycott 3. Has never heard of any of the controversy and is blissfully ignorant 4. Is aware of the controversy but never signed up for that discussion in the first place and is just here for wizard fiction, wishes the controversy never existed. I think the CEO of Framework is essentially going for #4 here, and I am quite mixed on whether that standpoint is enabling of problematic people or not. I can understand arguments both ways. For the role of a CEO, in this day and age, taking a polarized position does have the possibility of alienating half of your customer base, essentially a no-win scenario. #4 is also mixed with a sprinkle of "Sometimes saying too much and engaging too much in the argument is your own undoing and digging your own grave." Often CEOs that say nothing end up with better outcomes than those who take an active stance on issues. I can totally recognize that #4 is objectively more cowardly and less principled than #2, but I also don't know that we can expect 100% of generally good people to be freedom fighters.
  - konmok 10mo ago
    Yeah, that's a good breakdown. I mean, he definitely brought this on himself by leaning so hard into Omarchy in the first place, but maybe he was just ignorant of DHH's views and thought that was a "neutral" thing to do. In any case, I think it's important for consumers to confront companies when they pull stunts like this. Also, I'm not certain that #4-type CEOs actually have better outcomes - maybe in the short term, but when the creeping technofascism becomes more obvious, that causes real problems (see e.g. NixOS, Tesla)
  - zozzle 10mo ago
    JKR's views are pro-women, not anti-trans. The negative impact on women and girls is the reason why she's talking about this at all.
    - dangus 10mo ago
      “AH’s views are pro-Germany, not anti-Jew. The negative impact on Germany is the reason why she's talking about this at all.”
      - DANmode 10mo ago
        I don’t have a strong position in this chat, but you should know what you did there is such a fallacy there’s a name for it.
        dangus 10mo ago
        It’s a fun one, though, because JKR’s whole life and works involve strong themes surrounding eugenics. So it’s really not that far of a stretch to make this association in her case. In her books the wizards fight against wizard Hitler and his eugenic holocaust. In real life, she engages in her own form of eugenic crusade where she believes the sex organs you are born with define your personality, identity, and your criminal tendencies.
      - zozzle 10mo ago
        JKR has never advocated violence, never denied anyone's humanity, and never called for any group to be eradicated. Hitler did all of those things on an industrial scale. What on earth compelled you to equate the most evil mass-murderer of the 20th century with a children's author and feminist who says sex is real and matters for women's rights and safety?
DetroitThrow 10mo ago
So they're not sponsoring Omarchy sure, but that the CEO doesn't really respond to the parts where they've advertised Omarchy repeatedly is enough for me to close my wallet going forward. For me, this is a cut and dry issue and you don't have to endorse white supremacy to make it clear you don't have many issues with engaging white supremacists. DHH has said things beyond the pale, that go as far to say that people like me are not welcome in spaces he tours, not because of my actions but instead my skin color. Framework can flirt with his projects if they want to. I just won't buy their products going forward, and it sounds like they're fine with that. Idrc if it's seen as contributing to cancel culture.
- dangus 10mo ago
  I can appreciate that you informed yourself well on the issue and weren't just making a knee-jerk reaction like I originally suspected based on your first comment's brevity.
- throwawaypath 10mo ago
  >DHH has said things beyond the pale Such as? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. >that go as far to say that people like me are not welcome in spaces he tours, not because of my actions but instead my skin color. Citation needed. Direct links to quotes where he says specific races/skin colors are not welcome.
  - konmok 10mo ago
    Read "As I Remember London", and put on your reading comprehension hat. If you need help, try this article: https://jakelazaroff.com/words/dhh-is-way-worse-than-i-thought/ https://jakelazaroff.com/words/dhh-is-way-worse-than-i-thoug... DHH is clearly talking about people of color in London, and he's clearly expressing approval for Tommy Robinson. If you won't acknowledge that, you're either oblivious or racist. I hope it's the former.
    - deleted 10mo ago
      [deleted]