4 ms·

Agree it's linkbait. And yes there's a bit of self-congratulatory informercial about it. But there's an interesting underlying point at the end about the trade

by uberc 18y ago

Agree it's linkbait. And yes there's a bit of self-congratulatory informercial about it. But there's an interesting underlying point at the end about the tradeoff between high-level application-specific languages and powerful general purpose languages: "I would have done that years ago, but there was no tool in existence that made it possible. 'Possible?' you say. 'Surely it’s possible in C code, or Java, or Visual Basic, or Squeak, or something.' Well, no, it’s not possible for me in C or any other such serious environment, because I’m busy and these are just fun little things. If it’s going to take hours or days to do, it’s not possible for me to do." Also, Mathematica is damned cool, if I remember correctly from grad school days. So I don't mind if those guys are a bit prone to patting themselves on the back.

ahoyhere 18y ago
> So I don't mind if those guys are a bit prone to patting themselves on the back. I wouldn't care if it there was a feeling of "meta" awareness of the back-patting. Eating your own bullshit like it's tasty tasty chocolate, now that's a slippery slope you have to watch out for. Getting high on your own supply -> believing your own hype -> eating your own bullshit == quick track to irrelevency. Even if it gets you more fanboys.
- DaniFong 18y ago
  Can you give an example of a company that isn't constantly spinning its own PR story? It's annoying, sure, but I'm not sure it's actually, from a business perspective, detrimental.
  - ahoyhere 18y ago
    The question isn't whether they're spinning, but whether they drink their own Kool-Aid, or realize that it's Kool-Aid to begin with. Me, I hype myself, but I also make self-denigrating jokes and meta-references when I'm hyping. I apply my bullshit detector to myself. Example: http://tr.im/5bucks http://tr.im/5bucks You may say "Uhh, but you're just a person," but I'm a person with a readership of about 7500, and another thousand or two on a mailing list, and I'm working on a tongue-in-cheek "What sucks about freckle time tracking?" post for my company blog. Because there are parts of our product that really suck. And we know it. Here's a reverse case study: 37Signals was a lot more reasonable 5 years ago. Their blog posts were more actionable, less hype, and more importantly, the products fit a need and evolved. They kept doing consulting to pay the bills, so they couldn't escape reality. Reality is good. Cut forward 4 years, they launch Highrise, a product that was so "less" that it was practically "nothing" and not usable for anyone. It didn't have any features people required to actually manage their customer relationships. It was just an online addressbook with comments. You couldn't even sort by people with the most recent comments. How could that help you manage anything? And they had been talking it up for months, meaning that it wasn't an addressbook with comments that was developed in a weekend. There's nothing wrong with their marketing and PR. The only issue is that they believed their own hype, and really embarrassed themselves with a totally useless product. Now, a year later, it's a little bit better, but it's no Basecamp and no Backpack.
    - DaniFong 18y ago
      I should just mention Amy, that I love your work. Twistori is so cool. But my point is mostly that, despite the bullshit, Mathematica is radically more powerful for building user interfaces (up to a certain complexity) than anything I've seen. The self-hype hasn't exactly toned down over time either, so I'm less certain it's really the bad omen you make of it.
      - Retric 18y ago
        I think in the back of most developers heads is a little voice that says "My GUI tool set sucks" that most programmers ignore. People seemed to hate VB 6.0 because it was easy to use which is stupid.
      - ahoyhere 18y ago
        Dani, I'm really glad you like Twistori. I'm also glad if what you say about the eating-own-bullshit is not a problem at Wolfram Research. (But, last I saw, Mathematica itself had a horrible interface, beyond the language itself.) But, on the other hand, I must always strenuously object when someone talks about "building" user interfaces as if it's a matter of how easily one can plug widgets together. Which is what this article is about.
        DaniFong 18y ago
        Maybe it's a problem of language. Perhaps 'user-interface' is the wrong phrase for what Mathematica enables. It seems closer to 'interactive exploration'. Mathematica is really intended for general purpose exploration, and in that task, as well as many others, a 'hacked together' GUI made out of a few widgets is orders of magnitude more accessible than the raw code. It's not beautiful, necessarily, and it's not necessarily well-designed. It's not likely to replace the detailed, careful work of master designers. But it does succeed at placing extraordinary power at one's fingertips. When the elements simply work together, and the data can be simply, easily, and quickly plugged into to a display function and a manipulate function in a line or two, it opens really exciting new possibilities.
- deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]

by uberc 18y ago

ahoyhere 18y ago

> So I don't mind if those guys are a bit prone to patting themselves on the back. I wouldn't care if it there was a feeling of "meta" awareness of the back-patting. Eating your own bullshit like it's tasty tasty chocolate, now that's a slippery slope you have to watch out for. Getting high on your own supply -> believing your own hype -> eating your own bullshit == quick track to irrelevency. Even if it gets you more fanboys.

DaniFong 18y ago
Can you give an example of a company that isn't constantly spinning its own PR story? It's annoying, sure, but I'm not sure it's actually, from a business perspective, detrimental.
- ahoyhere 18y ago
  The question isn't whether they're spinning, but whether they drink their own Kool-Aid, or realize that it's Kool-Aid to begin with. Me, I hype myself, but I also make self-denigrating jokes and meta-references when I'm hyping. I apply my bullshit detector to myself. Example: http://tr.im/5bucks http://tr.im/5bucks You may say "Uhh, but you're just a person," but I'm a person with a readership of about 7500, and another thousand or two on a mailing list, and I'm working on a tongue-in-cheek "What sucks about freckle time tracking?" post for my company blog. Because there are parts of our product that really suck. And we know it. Here's a reverse case study: 37Signals was a lot more reasonable 5 years ago. Their blog posts were more actionable, less hype, and more importantly, the products fit a need and evolved. They kept doing consulting to pay the bills, so they couldn't escape reality. Reality is good. Cut forward 4 years, they launch Highrise, a product that was so "less" that it was practically "nothing" and not usable for anyone. It didn't have any features people required to actually manage their customer relationships. It was just an online addressbook with comments. You couldn't even sort by people with the most recent comments. How could that help you manage anything? And they had been talking it up for months, meaning that it wasn't an addressbook with comments that was developed in a weekend. There's nothing wrong with their marketing and PR. The only issue is that they believed their own hype, and really embarrassed themselves with a totally useless product. Now, a year later, it's a little bit better, but it's no Basecamp and no Backpack.
  - DaniFong 18y ago
    I should just mention Amy, that I love your work. Twistori is so cool. But my point is mostly that, despite the bullshit, Mathematica is radically more powerful for building user interfaces (up to a certain complexity) than anything I've seen. The self-hype hasn't exactly toned down over time either, so I'm less certain it's really the bad omen you make of it.
    - Retric 18y ago
      I think in the back of most developers heads is a little voice that says "My GUI tool set sucks" that most programmers ignore. People seemed to hate VB 6.0 because it was easy to use which is stupid.
    - ahoyhere 18y ago
      Dani, I'm really glad you like Twistori. I'm also glad if what you say about the eating-own-bullshit is not a problem at Wolfram Research. (But, last I saw, Mathematica itself had a horrible interface, beyond the language itself.) But, on the other hand, I must always strenuously object when someone talks about "building" user interfaces as if it's a matter of how easily one can plug widgets together. Which is what this article is about.
      - DaniFong 18y ago
        Maybe it's a problem of language. Perhaps 'user-interface' is the wrong phrase for what Mathematica enables. It seems closer to 'interactive exploration'. Mathematica is really intended for general purpose exploration, and in that task, as well as many others, a 'hacked together' GUI made out of a few widgets is orders of magnitude more accessible than the raw code. It's not beautiful, necessarily, and it's not necessarily well-designed. It's not likely to replace the detailed, careful work of master designers. But it does succeed at placing extraordinary power at one's fingertips. When the elements simply work together, and the data can be simply, easily, and quickly plugged into to a display function and a manipulate function in a line or two, it opens really exciting new possibilities.
deleted 18y ago
[deleted]