4 ms·

Machines are less than 400 million.

by nish__ 11mo ago

pixl97 11mo ago
And the cost of the people to run those machines, and the factories that are required to run the machines?
- waynesonfire 11mo ago
  Dont forget RAM.
- nish__ 11mo ago
  I'll do it for free. And I'm sure we could rent a facility.
  - bhhaskin 11mo ago
    I think you are vastly underestimating how a modern fab works. The average cost is 10 billion and takes a about 10 years to build. They are very complex and even the slightest issue can ruin yields. There is a reason why there are so few.
    - nish__ 11mo ago
      Yeah you're right. I was way off.
      - acksponies 10mo ago
        Why is your bitcoin donation still active then?
q3k 11mo ago
You're just talking about a lithography machine. Patterning is one step out of thousands in a modern process (albeit an important one). There's plenty more stuff needed for a production line, this isn't a 3D printer but for chips. And that's just for the FEOL stuff, then you still need to do BEOL :). And packaging. And testing (accelerated/environmental, too). And failure analysis. And... Also, you know, there's a whole process you'll need to develop. So prepare to be not making money (but spending tons of it on running the lines) until you have a well tested PDK.
- baq 11mo ago
  > 3D printer but for chips how about a farm of electron microscopes? these should work
  - vel0city 11mo ago
    Canon has been working on an alternative to EUV lithography called nanoimprint lithography. It would be a bit closer to the idea of having an inkjet printer make the masks to etch the wafers. It hasn't been proven in scale and there's a lot of thinking this won't really be useful, but it's neat to see and maybe the detractors are wrong. https://global.canon/en/technology/nil-2023.html https://global.canon/en/technology/nil-2023.html https://newsletter.semianalysis.com/p/nanoimprint-lithography-stop-saying https://newsletter.semianalysis.com/p/nanoimprint-lithograph... They'll still probably require a good bit of operator and designer knowledge to work around whatever rough edges exist in the technology to keep yields high, assuming it works. It's still not a "plug it in, feed it blank wafers, press PRINT, and out comes finished chips!" kind of machine some here seem to think exist.

Machines are less than 400 million.

by nish__ 11mo ago

Machines are less than 400 million.

pixl97 11mo ago

And the cost of the people to run those machines, and the factories that are required to run the machines?

waynesonfire 11mo ago
Dont forget RAM.
nish__ 11mo ago
I'll do it for free. And I'm sure we could rent a facility.
- bhhaskin 11mo ago
  I think you are vastly underestimating how a modern fab works. The average cost is 10 billion and takes a about 10 years to build. They are very complex and even the slightest issue can ruin yields. There is a reason why there are so few.
  - nish__ 11mo ago
    Yeah you're right. I was way off.
    - acksponies 10mo ago
      Why is your bitcoin donation still active then?

q3k 11mo ago

You're just talking about a lithography machine. Patterning is one step out of thousands in a modern process (albeit an important one). There's plenty more stuff needed for a production line, this isn't a 3D printer but for chips. And that's just for the FEOL stuff, then you still need to do BEOL :). And packaging. And testing (accelerated/environmental, too). And failure analysis. And... Also, you know, there's a whole process you'll need to develop. So prepare to be not making money (but spending tons of it on running the lines) until you have a well tested PDK.

baq 11mo ago
> 3D printer but for chips how about a farm of electron microscopes? these should work
- vel0city 11mo ago
  Canon has been working on an alternative to EUV lithography called nanoimprint lithography. It would be a bit closer to the idea of having an inkjet printer make the masks to etch the wafers. It hasn't been proven in scale and there's a lot of thinking this won't really be useful, but it's neat to see and maybe the detractors are wrong. https://global.canon/en/technology/nil-2023.html https://global.canon/en/technology/nil-2023.html https://newsletter.semianalysis.com/p/nanoimprint-lithography-stop-saying https://newsletter.semianalysis.com/p/nanoimprint-lithograph... They'll still probably require a good bit of operator and designer knowledge to work around whatever rough edges exist in the technology to keep yields high, assuming it works. It's still not a "plug it in, feed it blank wafers, press PRINT, and out comes finished chips!" kind of machine some here seem to think exist.