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Amongst groups for extremely gifted kids I’ve seen, well over half are neurodivergent. It’s a well understood issue in gifted kids psychology. When these kids a
by jph00 10mo ago
Amongst groups for extremely gifted kids I’ve seen, well over half are neurodivergent. It’s a well understood issue in gifted kids psychology. When these kids are accommodated appropriately they ace their classes, and when not, they fail out entirely, even at the most basic levels of education.
So the statistics mentioned in the article are not necessarily inconsistent with what we’d expect, since Stanford is a highly selective school that’s by definition going to be picking gifted kids over less gifted ones, and from that group will pick those that were accommodated appropriately.
(There could also be cheating - I don’t know either way. I’m just commenting on the premise of the article. One person in it claims the kids aren’t really disabled because they don’t have wheelchairs. Hopefully it’s fairly obvious that this claim is totally illogical. Such an obviously unreasonable claim on a website called “Reason” makes me wonder what they are actually trying to achieve there.)
- swiftcoder 10mo ago> Such an obviously unreasonable claim on a website called “Reason” makes me wonder what they are actually trying to achieve there. Libertarianism, it would seem
- woodruffw 10mo ago> Libertarianism, it would seem In some peculiar, perverted sense, given that evaluating claims of disability requires breaching students' medical privacy. You wouldn't normally expect libertarians to so overtly be okay with invasions of personal privacy.
- bee_rider 10mo agoI think they are just commenting on the bias of Reason magazine (it is a well known libertarian magazine).
- woodruffw 10mo agoI know; I'm pointing out this is manifestly not a libertarian worldview. It's part and parcel with Reason being ideologically paleoconservative with a libertarian dressing.
- dragonwriter 10mo agoThat’s probably because Reason’s libertarian goal is not to get claims of disability evaluated. The goal is to get the government mandate for disability accommodations eliminated, which eliminates any benefit of making the claims and therefore any reason to evaluate the claims.
- beambot 10mo agoJust curious: If non-neurodivergent children are given the same accomodations (which are?) do they significantly outperform their peers too? For example: it's well known that 1-on-1 instruction time correlates to better academic outcomes. (I'm not an educator; I have no idea.)
- mrgoldenbrown 10mo agoSimilarly getting extra time on a test sure as heck would have improved my scores in many cases.
- solomonb 10mo agoAnd ADHD meds seem like they would be helpful for studying.. How and where do we draw the line who gets and needs additional support?
- veilrap 10mo ago100%, it's one of the irksome things about the education system in general - resources are limited. It's a hard problem to solve.
- jph00 10mo agoI don't know about Stanford, but in earlier schooling accomodations can include things like being allowed to sit on a bouncy chair, or use a fidget toy, or type instead of hand-write (physical asynchronous development is a common issue), or wear headphones, or take more frequent breaks. I do think that more flexibility in educational environments might be good for most people, yes.
- dyauspitr 10mo agoWhat is neurodivergent though? If it’s a third of people, you can probably deem that normal.
- ok_dad 10mo agoIt's a way to separate us so that we can fight about it and not focus on the important aspect which is to provide everyone the help they need and deserve to make a successful life for themselves. Some may need more help than others, and so the powers that be who want to keep all that profit for themselves target those who need more help with dumb articles like this one which spread FUD.
- guizadillas 10mo agoYou almost lost me in the first half but yeah, that title alone shows the intentions of the editorial
- ok_dad 10mo agoI should specify also that I am not saying a medical diagnosis is not important, or that there is no such thing as ADHD or Autism. I believe as a society we need to be more flexible in every area for every human and also to give individual attention to everyone so they can excel. Some people will need more help than others, like those with ADHD, and some will need much, much more help than others, such as those with more extreme sensory issues with Autism who may not even be able to go out in public without accommodations.
- swiftcoder 10mo agoCurrent estimates place it around 20% of the population. Wouldn't take a whole lot of sampling error in admissions to result in 40% of admitted students
- dragonwriter 10mo agoStanford doesn't try to admit a random sample of the population, and its quite posssible the things it does select on positively correlate with the conditions at issue; it's quite plausible nonsampling error (systemic bias) is a bigger issue than sampling error in explaining any prevalence difference from the general population here.
- dkarl 10mo agoMy current employer had me answer the question of whether I'm "disabled." I've never answered "yes" to this question since I've never been diagnosed with any form of neurodivergence, though therapists have suggested that there's a good chance I'd be diagnosed if I saw a specialist. But this time I noticed that my employer's definition of "disabled" included not only neurodivergence but also depression, which I do have a diagnosis for. So... now I'm disabled. I have no idea what use the label is when it's so broadly defined. It doesn't give my employer any information that would help them support me in any way. Fingers crossed there is some benefit to it.
- nickff 10mo agoIt probably helps the employer demonstrate that they hire and retain disabled people, likely assisting with some government quotas, and defenses against lawsuits by aggrieved ex-employees.
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- aeturnum 10mo agoIt is interesting to consider that disability may enable much higher academic performance as long as people get the proper accommodations. After all, wouldn't it be interesting if people we think of as disabled can - under the correct conditions - be more productive than 'able' people. An individuals' capability is generally pretty circumstantial and I think we should be open to asking questions about how optimal our current social structure is for productivity and capacity going forward. We may need to imagine new ways of living and structuring work and society to reach even higher levels of productivity.
- frm88 10mo ago^^This! Our current societal and cultural structure is not adequately set up to deal with, for example climate change and subsequent mass migrations, widening wealth gap, increasing authoritarianism, centrlising of control and power and a myriad of other problems, not to mention any second and third order effects; let alone improve to higher levels of productivity.
- fsckboy 10mo ago>It’s a well understood issue in gifted kids psychology if it's a well-understood issue in a scientific field, it's basically well-understood through the work of neurodivergent scientists.
- rahimnathwani 10mo agoYour point about Stanford having a larger-than-average proportion of 'extremely gifted' kids is reasonable. Perhaps the smartest 20% at Stanford are drawn from the smartest 0.1% nationally. But I think you're too dismissive of this part: The professors Horowitz interviewed largely back up this theory. "You hear 'students with disabilities' and it's not kids in wheelchairs," one professor told Horowitch. "It's just not. It's rich kids getting extra time on tests." You said "One person in it claims the kids aren’t really disabled because they don’t have wheelchairs" but this is a straw man. The professor did not say this. If you read the statement charitably, the professor only pointed out two things that are probably true, which I paraphrase below: - most people, when they hear about students with disabilities, imagine physical disabilities - the professor has seen that a sizable proportion of students classified as disabled do not require accommodations Now, we could argue about what are reasonable accommodations and which are not. This is where I'm interested to hear your perspective. I assume you are in favor of these two: - kid needs wheelchair and a ramp, so kid can attend class - kid needs glasses, so kid can see the whiteboard I assume you are not in favor of this one: - kid cannot find the derivative of 2x^2, so kid is allowed to use a CAS calculator for Calculus 1 exams What do you think about this one? - kid can pass the English Composition 1 exam, but only if given twice as much time as other students
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- jph00 10mo agoYour request to read charitably is not supported by your followup of cartoonish straw man questions. You are using rhetorical trickery to make a point rather than engaging in honest dialog.
- rahimnathwani 10mo agoI used no trickery. I am attempting to ascertain where you draw the line. I offered examples that I presume we agree on, on both sides of the line. Then I gave an example where we might disagree. If you feel my questions are 'cartoonish straw man questions' then that of course is your right. However, I want to make it clear that: - you mischaracterized the quotation from the professor in the article - I would honestly like to understand (i) whether you agree there is a line to be drawn between things that correct for impediments that are irrelevant to the competency being tested, and (ii) where you would draw that line. If the manner in which I've written my questions makes it seem like I have any intention other than to understand your position more clearly, I apologize.