4 ms·

I'm mostly a law professor these days. When final-exam time rolls around (as in, this week), I raise my eyebrows when I'm sent the list of students who get 50%

by dctoedt 10mo ago

I'm mostly a law professor these days. When final-exam time rolls around (as in, this week), I raise my eyebrows when I'm sent the list of students who get 50% extra time. I wouldn't presume to judge the propriety of any given student's accommodation. But many of the accommodated students seem to have done just fine in class discussions during the semester. FTA: "Unnecessary accommodations are a two-front form of cheating—they give you an unjust leg-up on your fellow students, but they also allow you to cheat yourself out of genuine intellectual growth."

scratchyone 10mo ago
FWIW, consider that some of these students may need the accommodation specifically because of the pressure of the final exam. Many mental health disabilities will become worse with stress. A low stress environment and a high stress final exam could trigger entirely different symptoms. For example, I have OCD (real, diagnosed, not the bs "omg im so ocddddd"). I have extra time accommodations because I have to spend time dealing with my OCD symptoms. With treatment, they tend to fade into the background. They re-emerge only in high stress situations. I would seem like a perfectly normal student in class, but then clearly start struggling with these symptoms if you watched me take an exam. Consider, many other students you teach may have these same experiences.
- lisbbb 10mo ago
  Then they don't belong in the law field or wherever, simple as that. My son has OCD pretty bad, and I know there are roles he is unsuitable for. One of the things he does is confesses about every little thing that happens--he can't keep a secret or tell a lie. It's socially debilitating.
  - scratchyone 10mo ago
    You do realize that not everybody has the same symptoms right? Many people with OCD may struggle with tests but can do just fine in the real world. Tests aren't at all representative of real jobs.
- dctoedt 10mo ago
  > some of these students may need the accommodation specifically because of the pressure of the final exam. Success as a lawyer often requires the ability to handle a certain amount of pressure. Timed exams are one way of screening for that ability. But it's by no means a sure-fire predictor of success: Legendary trial lawyer Joe Jamail [0] flunked his first-year Torts class at UT Austin [1], yet went on to become a billionnaire. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Jamail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Jamail [1] https://abovethelaw.com/2015/12/r-i-p-to-a-billionaire-lawyer/ https://abovethelaw.com/2015/12/r-i-p-to-a-billionaire-lawye...
  - lingrush4 10mo ago
    One can only hope these accommodations are not being granted to medical students.
  - gverrilla 10mo ago
    You are praising billionaires while complaining about people gaming the system? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    - dctoedt 10mo ago
      It wasn't praise — just an observation about how grades and class standing aren't always a good predictor of success. (I never met Joe Jamail, but by reputation there was a lot about him that I didn't especially admire.)
      - gverrilla 10mo ago
        The problem is your identifying success with becoming a billionaire. To me, in the contrary, it's the telltale of a profoundly broken society.
        dctoedt 10mo ago
        I don't disagree that the existence of billionnaires is problematic (especially given the Supreme Court's abominable decision in Citizens United). But it's beyond rational dispute that Joe Jamail was one of the most successful trial lawyers of our era.
Sparkle-san 10mo ago
I don't see how getting 50% extra time on exams is anything remotely close to cheating. Almost nothing I do in my day to day job comes close to being as time-boxed or arbitrarily restrictive as exams were in college.
- loeg 10mo ago
  Why don't all students get the extra time, then?
  - ghc 10mo ago
    That's a great question, actually. Timing tests appears to arbitrarily punish students.
  - devsda 10mo ago
    If everybody gets extension, say a 2 hr test becomes 3 hrs, then eventually there will be someone who claims 3 hrs is the new normal time and still demand an extension over that. It really depends on the perception of whether the goal of the extension is to give disabled students an edge over "normal" students or to give everyone a fair(not necessarily equal) opportunity to complete the test.
  - will4274 10mo ago
    Doesn't satisfy the ADA. Department of Ed will sue and say that an accomodation given to everybody is no accomodation at all.
    - lupire 10mo ago
      Are you implying that if someone walks up a wheelchair ramp, then the building is violating the ADA?
      - will4274 10mo ago
        No, of course not, that'd be ridiculous. Where did you see that in my post? To explain in more detail. The ADA says that an accommodation is when an entity (business, employer, school) makes a change of behavior. Installing a wheelchair ramp in an older inaccessible building is an accomodation. Granting extra time is an accomodation. Simply having accessible buildings or excessive time is not an accomodation. But why the lawyers treat it differently. Business feel comfortable, when they have a ramp, arguing that no accommodation is necessary for the wheelchair bound. The standards of accessible physical design are clear. Schools do not feel comfortable saying that no accommodation is necessary for mental health issues, ever. Their lawyers advise them that it's much better to give some sort of accomodation and argue in court about sufficient accomodations vs giving no accomodation at all.
throaway1988111 10mo ago
Im a 4.0 GPA student with no history of ever asking for or needing extra time for tests. I had an ADHD assessment after my mom was diagnosed (she is typical type, forgets everything), and they diagnosed me, and gave the following official recommendations: "Patient must be provided with extra time for all tests & assignments as he cannot focus due to ADHD." I never said I needed anything like this. In fact, I said the opposite. I would typically be one of the first to finish, because I had studied appropriately!

by dctoedt 10mo ago

scratchyone 10mo ago

FWIW, consider that some of these students may need the accommodation specifically because of the pressure of the final exam. Many mental health disabilities will become worse with stress. A low stress environment and a high stress final exam could trigger entirely different symptoms. For example, I have OCD (real, diagnosed, not the bs "omg im so ocddddd"). I have extra time accommodations because I have to spend time dealing with my OCD symptoms. With treatment, they tend to fade into the background. They re-emerge only in high stress situations. I would seem like a perfectly normal student in class, but then clearly start struggling with these symptoms if you watched me take an exam. Consider, many other students you teach may have these same experiences.

lisbbb 10mo ago
Then they don't belong in the law field or wherever, simple as that. My son has OCD pretty bad, and I know there are roles he is unsuitable for. One of the things he does is confesses about every little thing that happens--he can't keep a secret or tell a lie. It's socially debilitating.
- scratchyone 10mo ago
  You do realize that not everybody has the same symptoms right? Many people with OCD may struggle with tests but can do just fine in the real world. Tests aren't at all representative of real jobs.
dctoedt 10mo ago
> some of these students may need the accommodation specifically because of the pressure of the final exam. Success as a lawyer often requires the ability to handle a certain amount of pressure. Timed exams are one way of screening for that ability. But it's by no means a sure-fire predictor of success: Legendary trial lawyer Joe Jamail [0] flunked his first-year Torts class at UT Austin [1], yet went on to become a billionnaire. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Jamail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Jamail [1] https://abovethelaw.com/2015/12/r-i-p-to-a-billionaire-lawyer/ https://abovethelaw.com/2015/12/r-i-p-to-a-billionaire-lawye...
- lingrush4 10mo ago
  One can only hope these accommodations are not being granted to medical students.
- gverrilla 10mo ago
  You are praising billionaires while complaining about people gaming the system? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  - dctoedt 10mo ago
    It wasn't praise — just an observation about how grades and class standing aren't always a good predictor of success. (I never met Joe Jamail, but by reputation there was a lot about him that I didn't especially admire.)
    - gverrilla 10mo ago
      The problem is your identifying success with becoming a billionaire. To me, in the contrary, it's the telltale of a profoundly broken society.
      - dctoedt 10mo ago
        I don't disagree that the existence of billionnaires is problematic (especially given the Supreme Court's abominable decision in Citizens United). But it's beyond rational dispute that Joe Jamail was one of the most successful trial lawyers of our era.

Sparkle-san 10mo ago

I don't see how getting 50% extra time on exams is anything remotely close to cheating. Almost nothing I do in my day to day job comes close to being as time-boxed or arbitrarily restrictive as exams were in college.

loeg 10mo ago
Why don't all students get the extra time, then?
- ghc 10mo ago
  That's a great question, actually. Timing tests appears to arbitrarily punish students.
- devsda 10mo ago
  If everybody gets extension, say a 2 hr test becomes 3 hrs, then eventually there will be someone who claims 3 hrs is the new normal time and still demand an extension over that. It really depends on the perception of whether the goal of the extension is to give disabled students an edge over "normal" students or to give everyone a fair(not necessarily equal) opportunity to complete the test.
- will4274 10mo ago
  Doesn't satisfy the ADA. Department of Ed will sue and say that an accomodation given to everybody is no accomodation at all.
  - lupire 10mo ago
    Are you implying that if someone walks up a wheelchair ramp, then the building is violating the ADA?
    - will4274 10mo ago
      No, of course not, that'd be ridiculous. Where did you see that in my post? To explain in more detail. The ADA says that an accommodation is when an entity (business, employer, school) makes a change of behavior. Installing a wheelchair ramp in an older inaccessible building is an accomodation. Granting extra time is an accomodation. Simply having accessible buildings or excessive time is not an accomodation. But why the lawyers treat it differently. Business feel comfortable, when they have a ramp, arguing that no accommodation is necessary for the wheelchair bound. The standards of accessible physical design are clear. Schools do not feel comfortable saying that no accommodation is necessary for mental health issues, ever. Their lawyers advise them that it's much better to give some sort of accomodation and argue in court about sufficient accomodations vs giving no accomodation at all.

throaway1988111 10mo ago

Im a 4.0 GPA student with no history of ever asking for or needing extra time for tests. I had an ADHD assessment after my mom was diagnosed (she is typical type, forgets everything), and they diagnosed me, and gave the following official recommendations: "Patient must be provided with extra time for all tests & assignments as he cannot focus due to ADHD." I never said I needed anything like this. In fact, I said the opposite. I would typically be one of the first to finish, because I had studied appropriately!