3 ms·

I can't wait for all the research papers from the "They Can Talk" talking buttons studies. Absolutely fascinating stuff coming out - pets apparently learn to un

I can't wait for all the research papers from the "They Can Talk" talking buttons studies. Absolutely fascinating stuff coming out - pets apparently learn to understand not only simple words, but complex constructions and grammar, when sufficiently modeled by their people. They even chain together words in meaningful ways to augment their vocabulary and communicate complex ideas. Simple vocalizations are cool, but that's pretty limited communication, and if they're capable of so much more, it's pretty likely that they're using individual meows in much the same way a human would under the same constraints. Imagine only being able to say "HEY!" and having to use context and body language in every situation. TheyCanTalk have got n>10k animals so far, mostly cats and dogs, with a handful of pigs, rabbits, goats, and others. I've seen a few horses, cows, and others on social media, too, and they've got a lot more customers than study participants.

OneDeuxTriSeiGo 11mo ago
Yeah it varies from individual to individual but the running theory I've seen is that cats can understand and interact with language at the level of a 3-4yo.
- phainopepla2 11mo ago
  This is an absolutely wild theory. 3-4 year-olds can speak in full sentences, and understand quite complicated language
- magixx 11mo ago
  I would love to believe this but given my experience with my cat even single words are tough for them. For example my cat knows how to fetch her favorite toy but doesn't respond to the word "fetch" at all even with positive reinforcement (treats). The word "fetch" just doesn't mean anything for her even though I've paired it with the action of her fetch many times we play.
  - jasonjmcghee 11mo ago
    Anecdotally, the pitch/tone/voice you say something seems to matter more than the words themselves, to cats.
  - bckr 11mo ago
    I’m afraid you’re conflating understanding with obedience.
  - toast0 11mo ago
    The thing with cats is they can do a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they will. My cats will regularly come when called, if they feel like it. But... what's she going to do if you say fetch? If she wants to fetch, she'll bring you the toy and if she doesn't want to fetch, you telling her that you would like to isn't going to change her mind.
    - rendall 11mo ago
      After many years of living with cats, I have come to believe a cat actively refuses a command or request in a way that looks to humans like the cat does not hear or understand the request.
      - veeti 11mo ago
        Just like me...
  - stavros 11mo ago
    I don't know about cats (I haven't tried training) but my dog definitely knew a few nouns and verbs. She understood "food", "water", "walk", "bone", "ball", "bear" (her toys), and could distinguish between "point", "fetch", and "drop". With "fetch ball" she would go get the ball, whereas with "point food" she would point (paw) at the food, and with arbitrary combinations of these verbs and nouns. It's astonishing, I didn't think they could do that, but apparently they can.
    - 11mo ago
- nkrisc 11mo ago
  Having a 3-year old and two cats (and many more previously in my life), that sounds absurd. I can give my 3-year old (38 months) multi-part instructions and he can even ask clarifying questions back when my instructions are ambiguous or he doesn’t understand them. He’s also being to ask insightful questions as he observes the world around him. To suggest cats are capable of anything remotely close to that (with humans) requires extraordinary evidence.
  - bombcar 11mo ago
    My two year old can completely understand a sentence and then say, “No!” or ignore me. I’ve had cats that could do the same.
  - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 11mo ago
    > he can even ask clarifying questions back when my instructions are ambiguous or he doesn’t understand them This is kinda moot in this discussion given cats have neither the facial structure nor lung capacity for this. Others are essentially saying that a cat would (have the mental capacity to) do these things if they were not so physically constrained.
    - nkrisc 11mo ago
      Again, extraordinary evidence required. If it’s true, someone ought to be able to demonstrate it.
      - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 11mo ago
        > If it’s true, someone ought to be able to demonstrate it. This is not a truism. > Again, extraordinary evidence required. Yeah, whatever, dude. I'm not trying to convince you, just pointing out the irrelevance of the point that humans are physically capable of speaking like humans. That's moot to the claim that had been made in the parent comment. I could go on about other points you made. For example, you seem to be conflating working memory ("multi-part instructions") with understanding of language, given that was what the parent commenter had claimed. > He’s also being to ask insightful questions as he observes the world around him. Cats don't have the same mental capabilities as a 3-4 year-old but that is not under contention. That doesn't strictly mean they don't have a similar capacity for language as a 3-4 year-old. Put another way, you were not talking about your son's capacity for understanding language but rather his general mental capacity, which is not an apt refutation of what was claimed. This isn't to convince you of some belief (indeed, you're entitled to your opinion, friend) but to point out the illogic in your argument.
tkfoss 11mo ago
I haven't seen a single convincing example yet, do you mind sharing some?
- nullstyle 11mo ago
  I’ve seen some BilliSpeaks videos that absolutely convince me cats have more language capabilities than previously thought. When you say “convincing” what are you looking for? Do you think these youtubers are just using editing tricks and traps to convince a gullible internet? Genuinely curious.
  - guizadillas 11mo ago
    I assume they need convincing in the way it proves pets can communicate complex language or it is just the owner interpreting whatever they want
    - willis936 11mo ago
      Cats don't talk in complex ways to owners. Listen to what a male cat vocalizing while trying to woo a female cat. They have something to say and a means to say it. They don't need that kind of communication for reminding the food dispenser what time it is.
      - guizadillas 11mo ago
        That's exactly my thought, it is no different than teaching my dog a trick for treats
    - MangoToupe 11mo ago
      > pets can communicate complex language Who was even trying to push this narrative in the first place?
      - guizadillas 11mo ago
        the first comment: "complex constructions and grammar"
NetMageSCW 11mo ago
I am Groot.
canjobear 11mo ago
Do you have examples for complex grammar?
- observationist 11mo ago
  https://cclab.ucsd.edu/in-the-news/ https://cclab.ucsd.edu/in-the-news/ There are a lot of examples, but also I am using "complex" generously - "we go friend walk later" and things like that, the limitations seem to be 3-4 direct ideas chained together, with person+activity+time being about as complicated as things get. It's probably possible with the right curriculum to expand on that significantly, but it's really hard to get sufficient repetition on abstract things, and dog attention is highly selective and limited. If they get overexcited, they're not in word-learning mode anymore, they're just fixated on the ball, or the pigeon, or the weird smell that just happened. Once BCI for dogs is a thing, it wouldn't shock me to have a dog eventually write simple sentences or even engage in some sort of ideogram based text communications, but you're never getting a canine Shakespeare. You could definitely get narco k9s that deliberately say things like "I smell cocaine on this guy's shoe", or "I don't smell anything bad". With that and bodycam, you'd have a record and a way of auditing k9s. One of the potential spin-offs of this canine cognition research is the potential for a structured standard vocabulary for working dogs in various professions, with obvious benefits in police accountability, disability accommodation and assistance dogs, and so on. If all dog trainers worked from a common curriculum, then it could be standard that dogs are taught a consistent 30-40 baseline words, so if a dog escapes, it can interact with animal control officers or the public in useful ways. The biggest thing is that they can use language at all, I think. It's wonderful, and I hope it ends up being a big boost for animal welfare in general.

OneDeuxTriSeiGo 11mo ago

Yeah it varies from individual to individual but the running theory I've seen is that cats can understand and interact with language at the level of a 3-4yo.

phainopepla2 11mo ago
This is an absolutely wild theory. 3-4 year-olds can speak in full sentences, and understand quite complicated language
magixx 11mo ago
I would love to believe this but given my experience with my cat even single words are tough for them. For example my cat knows how to fetch her favorite toy but doesn't respond to the word "fetch" at all even with positive reinforcement (treats). The word "fetch" just doesn't mean anything for her even though I've paired it with the action of her fetch many times we play.
- jasonjmcghee 11mo ago
  Anecdotally, the pitch/tone/voice you say something seems to matter more than the words themselves, to cats.
- bckr 11mo ago
  I’m afraid you’re conflating understanding with obedience.
- toast0 11mo ago
  The thing with cats is they can do a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they will. My cats will regularly come when called, if they feel like it. But... what's she going to do if you say fetch? If she wants to fetch, she'll bring you the toy and if she doesn't want to fetch, you telling her that you would like to isn't going to change her mind.
  - rendall 11mo ago
    After many years of living with cats, I have come to believe a cat actively refuses a command or request in a way that looks to humans like the cat does not hear or understand the request.
    - veeti 11mo ago
      Just like me...
- stavros 11mo ago
  I don't know about cats (I haven't tried training) but my dog definitely knew a few nouns and verbs. She understood "food", "water", "walk", "bone", "ball", "bear" (her toys), and could distinguish between "point", "fetch", and "drop". With "fetch ball" she would go get the ball, whereas with "point food" she would point (paw) at the food, and with arbitrary combinations of these verbs and nouns. It's astonishing, I didn't think they could do that, but apparently they can.
  - 11mo ago
nkrisc 11mo ago
Having a 3-year old and two cats (and many more previously in my life), that sounds absurd. I can give my 3-year old (38 months) multi-part instructions and he can even ask clarifying questions back when my instructions are ambiguous or he doesn’t understand them. He’s also being to ask insightful questions as he observes the world around him. To suggest cats are capable of anything remotely close to that (with humans) requires extraordinary evidence.
- bombcar 11mo ago
  My two year old can completely understand a sentence and then say, “No!” or ignore me. I’ve had cats that could do the same.
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 11mo ago
  > he can even ask clarifying questions back when my instructions are ambiguous or he doesn’t understand them This is kinda moot in this discussion given cats have neither the facial structure nor lung capacity for this. Others are essentially saying that a cat would (have the mental capacity to) do these things if they were not so physically constrained.
  - nkrisc 11mo ago
    Again, extraordinary evidence required. If it’s true, someone ought to be able to demonstrate it.
    - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 11mo ago
      > If it’s true, someone ought to be able to demonstrate it. This is not a truism. > Again, extraordinary evidence required. Yeah, whatever, dude. I'm not trying to convince you, just pointing out the irrelevance of the point that humans are physically capable of speaking like humans. That's moot to the claim that had been made in the parent comment. I could go on about other points you made. For example, you seem to be conflating working memory ("multi-part instructions") with understanding of language, given that was what the parent commenter had claimed. > He’s also being to ask insightful questions as he observes the world around him. Cats don't have the same mental capabilities as a 3-4 year-old but that is not under contention. That doesn't strictly mean they don't have a similar capacity for language as a 3-4 year-old. Put another way, you were not talking about your son's capacity for understanding language but rather his general mental capacity, which is not an apt refutation of what was claimed. This isn't to convince you of some belief (indeed, you're entitled to your opinion, friend) but to point out the illogic in your argument.

tkfoss 11mo ago

I haven't seen a single convincing example yet, do you mind sharing some?

nullstyle 11mo ago
I’ve seen some BilliSpeaks videos that absolutely convince me cats have more language capabilities than previously thought. When you say “convincing” what are you looking for? Do you think these youtubers are just using editing tricks and traps to convince a gullible internet? Genuinely curious.
- guizadillas 11mo ago
  I assume they need convincing in the way it proves pets can communicate complex language or it is just the owner interpreting whatever they want
  - willis936 11mo ago
    Cats don't talk in complex ways to owners. Listen to what a male cat vocalizing while trying to woo a female cat. They have something to say and a means to say it. They don't need that kind of communication for reminding the food dispenser what time it is.
    - guizadillas 11mo ago
      That's exactly my thought, it is no different than teaching my dog a trick for treats
  - MangoToupe 11mo ago
    > pets can communicate complex language Who was even trying to push this narrative in the first place?
    - guizadillas 11mo ago
      the first comment: "complex constructions and grammar"

NetMageSCW 11mo ago

I am Groot.

canjobear 11mo ago

Do you have examples for complex grammar?

observationist 11mo ago
https://cclab.ucsd.edu/in-the-news/ https://cclab.ucsd.edu/in-the-news/ There are a lot of examples, but also I am using "complex" generously - "we go friend walk later" and things like that, the limitations seem to be 3-4 direct ideas chained together, with person+activity+time being about as complicated as things get. It's probably possible with the right curriculum to expand on that significantly, but it's really hard to get sufficient repetition on abstract things, and dog attention is highly selective and limited. If they get overexcited, they're not in word-learning mode anymore, they're just fixated on the ball, or the pigeon, or the weird smell that just happened. Once BCI for dogs is a thing, it wouldn't shock me to have a dog eventually write simple sentences or even engage in some sort of ideogram based text communications, but you're never getting a canine Shakespeare. You could definitely get narco k9s that deliberately say things like "I smell cocaine on this guy's shoe", or "I don't smell anything bad". With that and bodycam, you'd have a record and a way of auditing k9s. One of the potential spin-offs of this canine cognition research is the potential for a structured standard vocabulary for working dogs in various professions, with obvious benefits in police accountability, disability accommodation and assistance dogs, and so on. If all dog trainers worked from a common curriculum, then it could be standard that dogs are taught a consistent 30-40 baseline words, so if a dog escapes, it can interact with animal control officers or the public in useful ways. The biggest thing is that they can use language at all, I think. It's wonderful, and I hope it ends up being a big boost for animal welfare in general.