5 ms·

Programming isn't fun — it's much more than that

23 points by jamest 14y ago

denzil_correa 14y ago
An xxx domain and blog posts on programming messes up my mind.
- tylermauthe 14y ago
  And the corporate porn filter @ my work...
  - dromidas 14y ago
    Yep I can't see it either. Microsoft IT doesn't often block websites, but when they do, it's probably a site with .xxx extension.
    - keithnoizu 14y ago
      They don't like the bit torrent site articles either much.
indiecore 14y ago
Great now a .xxx is on my work browsing history. Can we stop this please?
- _neil 14y ago
  I understand your dilemma, but HN shows the root domain next to all links for a reason.
  - dromidas 14y ago
    No it doesn't, at least not through RSS. All I see are 'Comments' and 'View Article' and the title. It doesn't display the domain anywhere. To actually see that I have to click on the Comments first and then look at the title at the top... but I usually don't even read comments on articles so I usually don't see that.
    - chc 14y ago
      That would be your RSS reader. Google Reader (which I guess most people use these days) is kinda bad about this, but you can still see it if you look hard — it shows up URI-encoded at the end of the link address when you mouse over. If you're using something else that really doesn't show it at all, you might want to see if there's a setting or something.
- JasonFruit 14y ago
  The writer says (in his "remote" section, which appears to mean "about" to him, for some reason): "Also, I think it's splendid that the IETF finally got around to giving pirates, coders, and hackers our own TLD—it's about time!" I'm pretty sure that he simply isn't as clever as he thinks he's being.
  - vikrum 14y ago
    Previous discussion here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4324755 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4324755
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
srikrishnan 14y ago
Its also about ownership (of the end product) for some of us. I first thought I like coding as I am solving problems. Then I realized its about writing neat code and algorithms, about finding the best way to do things. Later I figured it was about creation and ownership. At that stage, I figured there are a ton of other things I would enjoy as much as coding - new consumer product development of any form (not necessarily to do with computers or tech).
- vikrum 14y ago
  Calling out ownership as a distinct trait from the creation and subsequent usage is interesting. I think I touched on the incidental rewards associated with ownership (seeing your product used, feeling compelled to fix bugs, pride associated with the result, etc) but hadn't thought of it in particular. I'm glad you brought up the leap you made into other things you might enjoy doing as well. I'm sure I'll use that insight when starting on new endeavors!
bostonvaulter2 14y ago
Programming isn't fun in the same way that having a child isn't fun. At least I think the metaphor works having never had a child myself.
- vikrum 14y ago
  True, indeed! When writing this post, I kept coming up empty when trying to find something to compare it to (I explored other things like writing a book, creating music, painting, etc. but they never really matched up in the same way.)...
dizzystar 14y ago
I started programming via OCW about one year ago, so I'm really new at programming. I did start with HTML/CSS a few years before that, but that's not really programming. I think that telling people that they should start programming because it is fun is ultimately detrimental to the entire industry. Programming is fun in a similar way that running a marathon is fun. A marathoner isn't going to convince someone to run because running until your legs burn, you are out of breath, and feeling like you are on the brink of fatal dehydration is "fun." Marathoners believe the joy comes from seeing that time drop 3 seconds is fun: that all the hard work amounts to self-improvement and self-actualization. I used to be a long distance runner, and the reasoning is myriad and complex, but ultimately, the word "fun" in the classical sense never entered my mind and I doubt that it enters anyone's mind. Similarly, programming isn't "fun," though it can be in a superficial way, which I consider cheap glory: writing a for loop that displays the squares of x to y, or creating a static webpage, but I don't consider this the real fun. The problem with the real fun is the same problem one finds in running long-distance: the initial accomplishments mean nothing at all. The minor piecemeal achievements make it fun, but the ultimate fun doesn't start until you get more advanced, similar to reaching a sub-five-minute mile is fun but only after a certain level of endurance and speed is attained. The ultimate fun of programming, IMO, is learning how to use cleverness to turn a O(n^2) algorithm to a O(log n) algorithm, or seeing a pattern in a 1000 LOC program and creating the perfect abstraction that removes 300 lines, yet adds clarity, or learning a new tool that allows you to do things that were impossible one month earlier. Another part that makes things fun for me is the amount of things I have learned but never realized. There are many small items that I have learned over the past year but only recently had the ability to implement and understand. Sure, at the moment of initial learning, there is a bit of mind-blow, but then there is another level were a correlation is made that I would have never considered 3 months ago, but once using it, I am pleased with the progress I've made in many areas, without realizing it! The above is perhaps to esoteric for many people to understand at the beginning stages, but I think that telling people upfront about the intellectual journey, how their entire perspective on things they never thought possible and that once in a while, their mind will be expanded into idea and notions they never thought of, is the correct way to excite those that should be beginning on the journey. "Fun," to those who never programmed before, implies a non-intellectual challenge and little work to accomplish these goals. Maybe brogramming is "fun," but real programming isn't "fun" by the usual layman definition.

23 points by jamest 14y ago

denzil_correa 14y ago

An xxx domain and blog posts on programming messes up my mind.

tylermauthe 14y ago
And the corporate porn filter @ my work...
- dromidas 14y ago
  Yep I can't see it either. Microsoft IT doesn't often block websites, but when they do, it's probably a site with .xxx extension.
  - keithnoizu 14y ago
    They don't like the bit torrent site articles either much.

indiecore 14y ago

Great now a .xxx is on my work browsing history. Can we stop this please?

_neil 14y ago
I understand your dilemma, but HN shows the root domain next to all links for a reason.
- dromidas 14y ago
  No it doesn't, at least not through RSS. All I see are 'Comments' and 'View Article' and the title. It doesn't display the domain anywhere. To actually see that I have to click on the Comments first and then look at the title at the top... but I usually don't even read comments on articles so I usually don't see that.
  - chc 14y ago
    That would be your RSS reader. Google Reader (which I guess most people use these days) is kinda bad about this, but you can still see it if you look hard — it shows up URI-encoded at the end of the link address when you mouse over. If you're using something else that really doesn't show it at all, you might want to see if there's a setting or something.
JasonFruit 14y ago
The writer says (in his "remote" section, which appears to mean "about" to him, for some reason): "Also, I think it's splendid that the IETF finally got around to giving pirates, coders, and hackers our own TLD—it's about time!" I'm pretty sure that he simply isn't as clever as he thinks he's being.
- vikrum 14y ago
  Previous discussion here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4324755 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4324755
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

srikrishnan 14y ago

Its also about ownership (of the end product) for some of us. I first thought I like coding as I am solving problems. Then I realized its about writing neat code and algorithms, about finding the best way to do things. Later I figured it was about creation and ownership. At that stage, I figured there are a ton of other things I would enjoy as much as coding - new consumer product development of any form (not necessarily to do with computers or tech).

vikrum 14y ago
Calling out ownership as a distinct trait from the creation and subsequent usage is interesting. I think I touched on the incidental rewards associated with ownership (seeing your product used, feeling compelled to fix bugs, pride associated with the result, etc) but hadn't thought of it in particular. I'm glad you brought up the leap you made into other things you might enjoy doing as well. I'm sure I'll use that insight when starting on new endeavors!

bostonvaulter2 14y ago

Programming isn't fun in the same way that having a child isn't fun. At least I think the metaphor works having never had a child myself.

vikrum 14y ago
True, indeed! When writing this post, I kept coming up empty when trying to find something to compare it to (I explored other things like writing a book, creating music, painting, etc. but they never really matched up in the same way.)...

dizzystar 14y ago

I started programming via OCW about one year ago, so I'm really new at programming. I did start with HTML/CSS a few years before that, but that's not really programming. I think that telling people that they should start programming because it is fun is ultimately detrimental to the entire industry. Programming is fun in a similar way that running a marathon is fun. A marathoner isn't going to convince someone to run because running until your legs burn, you are out of breath, and feeling like you are on the brink of fatal dehydration is "fun." Marathoners believe the joy comes from seeing that time drop 3 seconds is fun: that all the hard work amounts to self-improvement and self-actualization. I used to be a long distance runner, and the reasoning is myriad and complex, but ultimately, the word "fun" in the classical sense never entered my mind and I doubt that it enters anyone's mind. Similarly, programming isn't "fun," though it can be in a superficial way, which I consider cheap glory: writing a for loop that displays the squares of x to y, or creating a static webpage, but I don't consider this the real fun. The problem with the real fun is the same problem one finds in running long-distance: the initial accomplishments mean nothing at all. The minor piecemeal achievements make it fun, but the ultimate fun doesn't start until you get more advanced, similar to reaching a sub-five-minute mile is fun but only after a certain level of endurance and speed is attained. The ultimate fun of programming, IMO, is learning how to use cleverness to turn a O(n^2) algorithm to a O(log n) algorithm, or seeing a pattern in a 1000 LOC program and creating the perfect abstraction that removes 300 lines, yet adds clarity, or learning a new tool that allows you to do things that were impossible one month earlier. Another part that makes things fun for me is the amount of things I have learned but never realized. There are many small items that I have learned over the past year but only recently had the ability to implement and understand. Sure, at the moment of initial learning, there is a bit of mind-blow, but then there is another level were a correlation is made that I would have never considered 3 months ago, but once using it, I am pleased with the progress I've made in many areas, without realizing it! The above is perhaps to esoteric for many people to understand at the beginning stages, but I think that telling people upfront about the intellectual journey, how their entire perspective on things they never thought possible and that once in a while, their mind will be expanded into idea and notions they never thought of, is the correct way to excite those that should be beginning on the journey. "Fun," to those who never programmed before, implies a non-intellectual challenge and little work to accomplish these goals. Maybe brogramming is "fun," but real programming isn't "fun" by the usual layman definition.