5 ms·

PandaBot: A friendly, affordable 3D printer

51 points by nerdburn 14y ago

My good friend Kelly is finally rolling out his inexpensive ($800) 3D printer for everyone. Please support the Kickstarter.

stephengillie 14y ago
I'm waiting for the 3d printer you download and assemble entirely from 3d-printed parts.
- kiba 14y ago
  And it will be made out of lego, or at least lego-compatible construction system.
- mahyarm 14y ago
  I'm waiting when you can get plastic in a form that works with these things at $2/pound.
  - jlgreco 14y ago
    There has been a lot of work lately at creating filament makers that would allow people to recycle scrap plastic into filament you can print with at home. I think that when this technology starts to mature things ought to get rather interesting.
- jlgreco 14y ago
  This is what the rep-rap project is working towards. One of the first obvious issues is how do you print motors? How to print circuit boards (with 3d printing hardware that is) is another obvious question, though that seems a bit more approachable. Wires are also another obvious one, though printing internal leads into pieces seems like a decent way of avoiding wires after you have gotten the "print a circuit board" thing down. Less technical issues are "Why do you even want to print the entire thing?". Right now most rep-raps use many metal rods. These could be replaced with printed parts, but is there really a reason? The metal rods are cheap, easy to source, and reliable. This all said, what rep-rap has accomplished to date is pretty impressive; they have snatched up most of the low hanging fruit and most of what is left isn't stuff that makes sense to print anyway.
taskstrike 14y ago
I love 3D printers, but this is the third one I've seen this week in addition to MakerBot and Form 1. I'm really not understanding what the differentiator is after seeing the video except a slight change in price.
- cdawzrd 14y ago
  This is a FDM printer that is a lot cheaper than the MakerBot ($800 vs $2100). The Form 1 is a SLA printer, which means it is better at making small, precise parts; but worse at making parts that are durable enough for actual testing in assemblies (as opposed to just looking pretty). It is interesting to see competition to the MakerBot, since $2k is still a bit high, and if the PandaBot's "calibration-free" design works as well as they claim, the ease-of-use factor is still a big thing to exploit. If it has even moderately good print quality, a commercial, fully-assembled FDM printer for under $1000 is an interesting prospect.
  - kellyjrose 14y ago
    Thanks. The basic thought was to get it to a point that we could provide it to designers and university students with little to no engineering experience and they could start printing their 3d models right away. Hence, the heavy emphasis on self-calibration and ease-of-use. The price range just works because we also designed it from the start to be a manufactured product, so we get an economy of scale very quickly as more people pick it up. You can see print quality examples on ponoko, Derek swung by our office to see it close up in action yesterday: http://blog.ponoko.com/2012/10/04/pandabot-3d-printer-launches-on-kickstarter/ http://blog.ponoko.com/2012/10/04/pandabot-3d-printer-launch...
- ghein 14y ago
  We think price is important and that the true power of 3D printing will come when we break out of the niche and into the mass market. Beyond price, we're designed from the start as a manufactured product, which led to much different component selection and engineering choices. These different design decisions gave us a much more rigid, robust, and quiet machine, while also allowing us to leverage the economies of scale and manufacturing skill of the global supply chain. I'm running product at Panda Robotics.
pxlpshr 14y ago
The video mentions they've only been working in the 3D printer world for less than a year. So now they know how to fix "all the problems" to make 3D printing available to the masses? The leadership page doesn't give me a lot of confidence in that blanket statement. Regular 2D printing isn't something that's been easy for most people after 20 years of modern computing. It's a toss up whether or not software, hardware, or user error.. For that reason, I think 3D printing will be a hobbyist thing for another 5 years at least. The delta between a PandaBot and a high-quality MakerBot 2 with a good reputation is only about $1,000. Thats not much for a die-hard hobbyist, or rich geek wanting a new tech toy to fiddle with. The MakerBot 2 is on its second iteration, designed and built by a thought leader, and looks really fucking impressive compared with the 2-tower and unprotected print head design of the PandaBot. When people want to bring devices to the masses, they need to consider what that means. How many kids may stick a pencil or finger into the moving parts when Dad isn't paying attention? Or what about my maid who's spraying dust repellant around my desk? How are you going to fight warranty issues on things nearly impossible to prove, and for which you're not protecting against via thoughtful product design? In effect, you've reduced costs to make the PandaBot accessible to a class of people who aren't really your customer, and that cost-cutting meant the removal of key parts that truly make a device ready for the masses. Like protecting the 'auto calibrating' head. I think it's great you're working on that goal but expectations seems a little disconnected from reality (from my perspective).
- anigbrowl 14y ago
  In effect, you've reduced costs to make the PandaBot accessible to a class of people who aren't really your customer And you know this how? I've been surprised at the consistent hostility of some people on HN to innovating on price. This is the same mentality that led to the US car market going temporarily insane and assuming that everyone wants the biggest SUV possible.
  - chc 14y ago
    It's because, in practice, most so-called price innovation is of the form "I just bought 2 million sticks of butter for $1 million. I think I'll sell them for 25¢ apiece." Being unprofitable or even just barely scraping by is not actually innovative, but too often that's what passes these days. (I'm not saying PandaBot is that way. I'm just offering a reason for the pushback against "innovating on price.")
melvinng 14y ago
Toronto based company!
- kellyjrose 14y ago
  Yep, just across from OCAD and AGO. :)
braum 14y ago
The Ultra-Bot 3D Printer Kickstarter ends in less than 22 hours and has a full assembled unit at $899 ($99 more). It's based on the original Makerbot Cupcake but upgraded and improved from trial and error. And there is a version with a larger build area (8x8x8"), which is the one I've pledged to receive. And with the heated build platform you can run ABS or PLA. The thing that bothers me about the PandaBot is the lack of details on the build area size (update: 11x11x11" Print Envelope" and heated platform). Also the price isn't that great compared to other fully assembled 3D printers with the same tech. Also I'm not a fan of the base moving instead of just the print head. I can't think of any wide format printers that move the base instead of the entire head assembly/gimble. I do love the snap together setup process and the look of the machine. It looks like something you would buy in a store and almost anyone could setup and start using immediately.
- kellyjrose 14y ago
  The build area is 11x11x11" The snap together process and self-calibration make it a much more useful experience. We've been bringing it all around town and usually have it set up and printing in minutes. You can especially see it in our BNN interview. Liav had to set it up in minutes because he couldn't be on set any longer than that. :) Full disclosure, I'm Kelly John Rose of Panda Robotics.
- ghein 14y ago
  Thanks for your comments. We've found that moving the bed horizontally helps reduce the size of motors necessary to move the head as well as simplifies the required inertial calculations to properly model the fluid flow to give a detailed, low defect object. We're definitely aiming for a store bought look. We've violated the sacred law of demos time and again and not yet been caught. To do Canada's CNBC we dragged it out of a cab and had it set up and printing in 5 minutes with no adjustment, with an alpha prototype! On live, national TV! So it's a decently robust design.
  - braum 14y ago
    awesome job on the look and ease of use and good luck on the project.
aidenn0 14y ago
Anyone else remember having to hand-calibrate 2d printers?
TheAmazingIdiot 14y ago
1. What is your firmware based upon? 2. What computer software do you use to assist PandaBot? Slic3r? 3. Do you need a computer hooked up via USB to facilitate printing? 4. Do you publish schematics and/or physical part dimensions for repair and replacement? 5. What makes your product better than a RepStrap? 6. A MendelMax full kit costs $699 USD. The kit is complete with full build instructions and fully repairable if/when something goes wrong. What makes your printer better than this model? 7. How do you handle inertial jerk when you have a partially printed model due to the moving table?
- ghein 14y ago
  1&2 We are using available firmware and software with the prototype while we build our own versions ( fully respecting the licenses the community is using for different projects). We're building software and firmware that are properly paramaterized for our system and give great results - you need to get the exact fluid mechanics right for your hardware. But it will be totally hackable and you are more than welcome to roll your own g-code with your favorite tool or even pick your firmware. 3 We load files via USB but you don't need to keep the computer plugged in after a successful transfer 4 We're generally using off the shelf parts but it's a commercial shelf. Trade-off of quality, tolerances, capabilities. We feel that the improvements to the stability and reliability of our product are worth going in this direction. 5 We're building a tool to let people focus on designing and producing physical objects. Different design objective than kits. By not being a Rep* we get access to interesting components with very tight tolerances which will give users a wonderful experience in reliably producing objects. 6 We're shipping a manufactured product, it comes in 2 pieces to reduce shipping costs. It's a tool that plugs in and goes. Auto-calibration and the incredible rigidity really help make it "just work". Again, it's a different focus from kits so different strengths and weaknesses. If you want to build your printer from scratch, we're not the right choice. If you want to be printing out of the box with no calibration, re-calibration, or learning all of the details of Slic3r or other tools, then we are the right choice. And then, if you want to explore Slic3r or optimal 3D material strategies without having to become a hardware/robotics guru, we are the right choice. Lots of room for different people to focus on different things, or for people to have different tools for different projects.
srlake 14y ago
Even though it's 3x the price, I'd take the Form 1: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/formlabs/form-1-an-affordable-professional-3d-printer http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/formlabs/form-1-an-affor... 3x the price and 10x the machine.

51 points by nerdburn 14y ago

My good friend Kelly is finally rolling out his inexpensive ($800) 3D printer for everyone. Please support the Kickstarter.

stephengillie 14y ago

I'm waiting for the 3d printer you download and assemble entirely from 3d-printed parts.

kiba 14y ago
And it will be made out of lego, or at least lego-compatible construction system.
mahyarm 14y ago
I'm waiting when you can get plastic in a form that works with these things at $2/pound.
- jlgreco 14y ago
  There has been a lot of work lately at creating filament makers that would allow people to recycle scrap plastic into filament you can print with at home. I think that when this technology starts to mature things ought to get rather interesting.
jlgreco 14y ago
This is what the rep-rap project is working towards. One of the first obvious issues is how do you print motors? How to print circuit boards (with 3d printing hardware that is) is another obvious question, though that seems a bit more approachable. Wires are also another obvious one, though printing internal leads into pieces seems like a decent way of avoiding wires after you have gotten the "print a circuit board" thing down. Less technical issues are "Why do you even want to print the entire thing?". Right now most rep-raps use many metal rods. These could be replaced with printed parts, but is there really a reason? The metal rods are cheap, easy to source, and reliable. This all said, what rep-rap has accomplished to date is pretty impressive; they have snatched up most of the low hanging fruit and most of what is left isn't stuff that makes sense to print anyway.

taskstrike 14y ago

I love 3D printers, but this is the third one I've seen this week in addition to MakerBot and Form 1. I'm really not understanding what the differentiator is after seeing the video except a slight change in price.

cdawzrd 14y ago
This is a FDM printer that is a lot cheaper than the MakerBot ($800 vs $2100). The Form 1 is a SLA printer, which means it is better at making small, precise parts; but worse at making parts that are durable enough for actual testing in assemblies (as opposed to just looking pretty). It is interesting to see competition to the MakerBot, since $2k is still a bit high, and if the PandaBot's "calibration-free" design works as well as they claim, the ease-of-use factor is still a big thing to exploit. If it has even moderately good print quality, a commercial, fully-assembled FDM printer for under $1000 is an interesting prospect.
- kellyjrose 14y ago
  Thanks. The basic thought was to get it to a point that we could provide it to designers and university students with little to no engineering experience and they could start printing their 3d models right away. Hence, the heavy emphasis on self-calibration and ease-of-use. The price range just works because we also designed it from the start to be a manufactured product, so we get an economy of scale very quickly as more people pick it up. You can see print quality examples on ponoko, Derek swung by our office to see it close up in action yesterday: http://blog.ponoko.com/2012/10/04/pandabot-3d-printer-launches-on-kickstarter/ http://blog.ponoko.com/2012/10/04/pandabot-3d-printer-launch...
ghein 14y ago
We think price is important and that the true power of 3D printing will come when we break out of the niche and into the mass market. Beyond price, we're designed from the start as a manufactured product, which led to much different component selection and engineering choices. These different design decisions gave us a much more rigid, robust, and quiet machine, while also allowing us to leverage the economies of scale and manufacturing skill of the global supply chain. I'm running product at Panda Robotics.

pxlpshr 14y ago

The video mentions they've only been working in the 3D printer world for less than a year. So now they know how to fix "all the problems" to make 3D printing available to the masses? The leadership page doesn't give me a lot of confidence in that blanket statement. Regular 2D printing isn't something that's been easy for most people after 20 years of modern computing. It's a toss up whether or not software, hardware, or user error.. For that reason, I think 3D printing will be a hobbyist thing for another 5 years at least. The delta between a PandaBot and a high-quality MakerBot 2 with a good reputation is only about $1,000. Thats not much for a die-hard hobbyist, or rich geek wanting a new tech toy to fiddle with. The MakerBot 2 is on its second iteration, designed and built by a thought leader, and looks really fucking impressive compared with the 2-tower and unprotected print head design of the PandaBot. When people want to bring devices to the masses, they need to consider what that means. How many kids may stick a pencil or finger into the moving parts when Dad isn't paying attention? Or what about my maid who's spraying dust repellant around my desk? How are you going to fight warranty issues on things nearly impossible to prove, and for which you're not protecting against via thoughtful product design? In effect, you've reduced costs to make the PandaBot accessible to a class of people who aren't really your customer, and that cost-cutting meant the removal of key parts that truly make a device ready for the masses. Like protecting the 'auto calibrating' head. I think it's great you're working on that goal but expectations seems a little disconnected from reality (from my perspective).

anigbrowl 14y ago
In effect, you've reduced costs to make the PandaBot accessible to a class of people who aren't really your customer And you know this how? I've been surprised at the consistent hostility of some people on HN to innovating on price. This is the same mentality that led to the US car market going temporarily insane and assuming that everyone wants the biggest SUV possible.
- chc 14y ago
  It's because, in practice, most so-called price innovation is of the form "I just bought 2 million sticks of butter for $1 million. I think I'll sell them for 25¢ apiece." Being unprofitable or even just barely scraping by is not actually innovative, but too often that's what passes these days. (I'm not saying PandaBot is that way. I'm just offering a reason for the pushback against "innovating on price.")

melvinng 14y ago

Toronto based company!

kellyjrose 14y ago
Yep, just across from OCAD and AGO. :)

braum 14y ago

The Ultra-Bot 3D Printer Kickstarter ends in less than 22 hours and has a full assembled unit at $899 ($99 more). It's based on the original Makerbot Cupcake but upgraded and improved from trial and error. And there is a version with a larger build area (8x8x8"), which is the one I've pledged to receive. And with the heated build platform you can run ABS or PLA. The thing that bothers me about the PandaBot is the lack of details on the build area size (update: 11x11x11" Print Envelope" and heated platform). Also the price isn't that great compared to other fully assembled 3D printers with the same tech. Also I'm not a fan of the base moving instead of just the print head. I can't think of any wide format printers that move the base instead of the entire head assembly/gimble. I do love the snap together setup process and the look of the machine. It looks like something you would buy in a store and almost anyone could setup and start using immediately.

kellyjrose 14y ago
The build area is 11x11x11" The snap together process and self-calibration make it a much more useful experience. We've been bringing it all around town and usually have it set up and printing in minutes. You can especially see it in our BNN interview. Liav had to set it up in minutes because he couldn't be on set any longer than that. :) Full disclosure, I'm Kelly John Rose of Panda Robotics.
ghein 14y ago
Thanks for your comments. We've found that moving the bed horizontally helps reduce the size of motors necessary to move the head as well as simplifies the required inertial calculations to properly model the fluid flow to give a detailed, low defect object. We're definitely aiming for a store bought look. We've violated the sacred law of demos time and again and not yet been caught. To do Canada's CNBC we dragged it out of a cab and had it set up and printing in 5 minutes with no adjustment, with an alpha prototype! On live, national TV! So it's a decently robust design.
- braum 14y ago
  awesome job on the look and ease of use and good luck on the project.

aidenn0 14y ago

Anyone else remember having to hand-calibrate 2d printers?

TheAmazingIdiot 14y ago

1. What is your firmware based upon? 2. What computer software do you use to assist PandaBot? Slic3r? 3. Do you need a computer hooked up via USB to facilitate printing? 4. Do you publish schematics and/or physical part dimensions for repair and replacement? 5. What makes your product better than a RepStrap? 6. A MendelMax full kit costs $699 USD. The kit is complete with full build instructions and fully repairable if/when something goes wrong. What makes your printer better than this model? 7. How do you handle inertial jerk when you have a partially printed model due to the moving table?

ghein 14y ago
1&2 We are using available firmware and software with the prototype while we build our own versions ( fully respecting the licenses the community is using for different projects). We're building software and firmware that are properly paramaterized for our system and give great results - you need to get the exact fluid mechanics right for your hardware. But it will be totally hackable and you are more than welcome to roll your own g-code with your favorite tool or even pick your firmware. 3 We load files via USB but you don't need to keep the computer plugged in after a successful transfer 4 We're generally using off the shelf parts but it's a commercial shelf. Trade-off of quality, tolerances, capabilities. We feel that the improvements to the stability and reliability of our product are worth going in this direction. 5 We're building a tool to let people focus on designing and producing physical objects. Different design objective than kits. By not being a Rep* we get access to interesting components with very tight tolerances which will give users a wonderful experience in reliably producing objects. 6 We're shipping a manufactured product, it comes in 2 pieces to reduce shipping costs. It's a tool that plugs in and goes. Auto-calibration and the incredible rigidity really help make it "just work". Again, it's a different focus from kits so different strengths and weaknesses. If you want to build your printer from scratch, we're not the right choice. If you want to be printing out of the box with no calibration, re-calibration, or learning all of the details of Slic3r or other tools, then we are the right choice. And then, if you want to explore Slic3r or optimal 3D material strategies without having to become a hardware/robotics guru, we are the right choice. Lots of room for different people to focus on different things, or for people to have different tools for different projects.

srlake 14y ago

Even though it's 3x the price, I'd take the Form 1: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/formlabs/form-1-an-affordable-professional-3d-printer http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/formlabs/form-1-an-affor... 3x the price and 10x the machine.