3 ms·

The only upshot of this whole saga seems to be an increased awareness (though a small bit) in general public about importance of privacy in the digital world.

by sateesh 10mo ago

The only upshot of this whole saga seems to be an increased awareness (though a small bit) in general public about importance of privacy in the digital world. Most of the media outlets (both English and regional language newspapers) provided a prominent coverage of this news.

alephnerd 10mo ago
It was Apple's pushback that lead to the DoT backing down [0], but they will most likely either try to push this again if they are able to assuage Apple (eg. drop the $38B anti-trust bill [1]), or will potentially adopt China- and Vietnam-style data sovereignty regulations. English speaking urban Indians are loud on English media but ultimately don't matter for political decisions because they can't actually flip an LA or LS election. You need to either be a significant voting bloc or a major economic bloc to become a veto player in any country. [0] - https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/boards-policy-regulation/apple-resist-india-order-preload-state-run-app-political-outcry-builds-2025-12-02/ https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/boards-policy-regulat... [1] - https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/boards-policy-regulation/apple-contests-indias-antitrust-penalty-law-with-risk-38-billion-fine-filing-2025-11-26/ https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/boards-policy-regulat...
akudha 10mo ago
Will the increased awareness change anything though? After Snowden, nothing seemed to have changed, it just seems to be getting worse. Most likely, Indian government will try again
- lern_too_spel 10mo ago
  After Snowden, the single illegal U.S. surveillance program he leaked was shut down, the browser vendors essentially forced https everywhere, companies encrypted their WANs, and E2EE became popular in consumer applications. That's just off the top of my head.
  - vpShane 10mo ago
    tell that to salt typhoon who collected copious amounts of data on all of us. https still uses unencrypted client hello's (ECH) across the vast majority of the internet, showing which domain the client is visiting in plaintext for multi-site servers to do SNI. DNS is still plaintext on most consumer routers/models provided by ISPs, stingray technology exists in the wild and is widely used to mimic cell towers. E2EE is not popular in consumer applications, even Telegram isn't E2EE and the main ones that claim they are like X's new Chat they have the keys on; Matrix having E2EE still shows meta data in plain text, room names in plain text. While iMessages, RCS, Signal are mostly mainstream, most people are unaware of the need for E2EE. RCS is its own set of issues. Pegasus, Cellbright, I can go on and on with the spyware companies that can just send a text message and infect devices with 0click exploits. We can have E2EE but if they can just see the screen or hook in to the messaging app's memory doesn't mean much. Pick up your cell phone, is it connected to Wifi? Can it see other Wifis? Apps track those nearby SSIDs and report to major databases to have accurate geo-location data down to the spot we stand. Don't get me started on Ad-Tech. The EU wants to install backdoors on everybody's devices and get rid of encryption entirely. Zero Trust Technologies are a fun thing to read in to, especially the need for them.
    - lern_too_spel 10mo ago
      > tell that to salt typhoon who collected copious amounts of data on all of us. That is not a US government program. You also brought up ECH, DoH, DoT, Android's fake cell tower detection, and Android's NEARBY_WIFI_DEVICES permission that also demonstrate a strong industry-wide push to limit mass surveillance, contributing to my argument that GGP's assertion that nothing has changed is incorrect. > The EU wants to install backdoors on everybody's devices and get rid of encryption entirely. No, it doesn't. Just because someone proposes something doesn't mean the EU wants it, especially when the EU completely removes that proposal from the table.
      - vpShane 10mo ago
        > That is not a US government program. You're right, it isn't. It's a foreign one (allagedly) and they used the tools telecoms and agencies use to monitor data, sms, call logs with IMEI/IMS mapping. Those, do belong to government agencies. > You also brought up ECH, DoH, DoT, Android's fake cell tower detection, and Android's NEARBY_WIFI_DEVICES permission that also demonstrate a strong industry-wide push to limit mass surveillance, contributing to my argument that GGP's assertion that nothing has changed is incorrect. This sounds more like you want to be correct; data brokers and mass surveillance are at an all time high, with platform providers requiring biometrics, ID uploads, data being sold, re-sold, re-sprinkled. Android devices that can not utilize the latest Android OS (16+) to my knowledge can not access these features, by default DoH, DoT are not enabled by default. Whether the device itself can show if a fake cell tower is being used is only one step. The telecom and infrastructure companies that provide 5g have more tech layered on top of it that is indeed vulnerable, salt typhoon sat dormant in major telecom and internet backbone devices for over a year before being discovered. We don't know whos cyber campaigns or who's involved in surveillance. I'll often get customers sharing the same stories where they call their ISPs and the ISP operator will list all the websites the customer viewed in casual conversation over the phone; which is scary. > No, it doesn't. Just because someone proposes something doesn't mean the EU wants it, especially when the EU completely removes that proposal from the table. Yes, it does. Many countries are in favor of it in the EU and even if it fails, they keep proposing it until it'll pass. The U.N. just signed a multi-nation treaty with 72 countries, including Russia, China, and Iran to swap data with other intelligence and law enforcement agencies with the data its collected as its joint mission to, on paper look like a good thing but broaden surveillance and share that data among countries. https://vp.net/l/en-US/blog/72-Nations-Create-Global-Surveillance-Juggernaut https://vp.net/l/en-US/blog/72-Nations-Create-Global-Surveil... The U.S. isn't involved with that, but here in the U.S. states are just now proposing VPN bans and requiring logging for major AI providers. Most things are walled gardens. The claims that it's getting better need all of us to put in a lot more work. Security, privacy, data integrity all go hand in hand. Those SSIDs have among them, tracking that tracks MAC addresses, which can also be scanned out of the air using basic tools like aircrack-ng A simple 'Share Your Location with this website' popup on a browser is more than enough to geo-locate you and provides enough information to geo-locate others on the same network. It getting better is just not true. I wish that were the case, but it's going to take a lot of work for all of us.
- cookiengineer 10mo ago
  Come to the dark side, we got no cookies but gophers here.
yumraj 10mo ago
India is the biggest market for WhatsApp, not sure about FB. I doubt general population cares about privacy or even understands what it means.

by sateesh 10mo ago

alephnerd 10mo ago

It was Apple's pushback that lead to the DoT backing down [0], but they will most likely either try to push this again if they are able to assuage Apple (eg. drop the $38B anti-trust bill [1]), or will potentially adopt China- and Vietnam-style data sovereignty regulations. English speaking urban Indians are loud on English media but ultimately don't matter for political decisions because they can't actually flip an LA or LS election. You need to either be a significant voting bloc or a major economic bloc to become a veto player in any country. [0] - https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/boards-policy-regulation/apple-resist-india-order-preload-state-run-app-political-outcry-builds-2025-12-02/ https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/boards-policy-regulat... [1] - https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/boards-policy-regulation/apple-contests-indias-antitrust-penalty-law-with-risk-38-billion-fine-filing-2025-11-26/ https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/boards-policy-regulat...

akudha 10mo ago

Will the increased awareness change anything though? After Snowden, nothing seemed to have changed, it just seems to be getting worse. Most likely, Indian government will try again

lern_too_spel 10mo ago
After Snowden, the single illegal U.S. surveillance program he leaked was shut down, the browser vendors essentially forced https everywhere, companies encrypted their WANs, and E2EE became popular in consumer applications. That's just off the top of my head.
- vpShane 10mo ago
  tell that to salt typhoon who collected copious amounts of data on all of us. https still uses unencrypted client hello's (ECH) across the vast majority of the internet, showing which domain the client is visiting in plaintext for multi-site servers to do SNI. DNS is still plaintext on most consumer routers/models provided by ISPs, stingray technology exists in the wild and is widely used to mimic cell towers. E2EE is not popular in consumer applications, even Telegram isn't E2EE and the main ones that claim they are like X's new Chat they have the keys on; Matrix having E2EE still shows meta data in plain text, room names in plain text. While iMessages, RCS, Signal are mostly mainstream, most people are unaware of the need for E2EE. RCS is its own set of issues. Pegasus, Cellbright, I can go on and on with the spyware companies that can just send a text message and infect devices with 0click exploits. We can have E2EE but if they can just see the screen or hook in to the messaging app's memory doesn't mean much. Pick up your cell phone, is it connected to Wifi? Can it see other Wifis? Apps track those nearby SSIDs and report to major databases to have accurate geo-location data down to the spot we stand. Don't get me started on Ad-Tech. The EU wants to install backdoors on everybody's devices and get rid of encryption entirely. Zero Trust Technologies are a fun thing to read in to, especially the need for them.
  - lern_too_spel 10mo ago
    > tell that to salt typhoon who collected copious amounts of data on all of us. That is not a US government program. You also brought up ECH, DoH, DoT, Android's fake cell tower detection, and Android's NEARBY_WIFI_DEVICES permission that also demonstrate a strong industry-wide push to limit mass surveillance, contributing to my argument that GGP's assertion that nothing has changed is incorrect. > The EU wants to install backdoors on everybody's devices and get rid of encryption entirely. No, it doesn't. Just because someone proposes something doesn't mean the EU wants it, especially when the EU completely removes that proposal from the table.
    - vpShane 10mo ago
      > That is not a US government program. You're right, it isn't. It's a foreign one (allagedly) and they used the tools telecoms and agencies use to monitor data, sms, call logs with IMEI/IMS mapping. Those, do belong to government agencies. > You also brought up ECH, DoH, DoT, Android's fake cell tower detection, and Android's NEARBY_WIFI_DEVICES permission that also demonstrate a strong industry-wide push to limit mass surveillance, contributing to my argument that GGP's assertion that nothing has changed is incorrect. This sounds more like you want to be correct; data brokers and mass surveillance are at an all time high, with platform providers requiring biometrics, ID uploads, data being sold, re-sold, re-sprinkled. Android devices that can not utilize the latest Android OS (16+) to my knowledge can not access these features, by default DoH, DoT are not enabled by default. Whether the device itself can show if a fake cell tower is being used is only one step. The telecom and infrastructure companies that provide 5g have more tech layered on top of it that is indeed vulnerable, salt typhoon sat dormant in major telecom and internet backbone devices for over a year before being discovered. We don't know whos cyber campaigns or who's involved in surveillance. I'll often get customers sharing the same stories where they call their ISPs and the ISP operator will list all the websites the customer viewed in casual conversation over the phone; which is scary. > No, it doesn't. Just because someone proposes something doesn't mean the EU wants it, especially when the EU completely removes that proposal from the table. Yes, it does. Many countries are in favor of it in the EU and even if it fails, they keep proposing it until it'll pass. The U.N. just signed a multi-nation treaty with 72 countries, including Russia, China, and Iran to swap data with other intelligence and law enforcement agencies with the data its collected as its joint mission to, on paper look like a good thing but broaden surveillance and share that data among countries. https://vp.net/l/en-US/blog/72-Nations-Create-Global-Surveillance-Juggernaut https://vp.net/l/en-US/blog/72-Nations-Create-Global-Surveil... The U.S. isn't involved with that, but here in the U.S. states are just now proposing VPN bans and requiring logging for major AI providers. Most things are walled gardens. The claims that it's getting better need all of us to put in a lot more work. Security, privacy, data integrity all go hand in hand. Those SSIDs have among them, tracking that tracks MAC addresses, which can also be scanned out of the air using basic tools like aircrack-ng A simple 'Share Your Location with this website' popup on a browser is more than enough to geo-locate you and provides enough information to geo-locate others on the same network. It getting better is just not true. I wish that were the case, but it's going to take a lot of work for all of us.
cookiengineer 10mo ago
Come to the dark side, we got no cookies but gophers here.

yumraj 10mo ago

India is the biggest market for WhatsApp, not sure about FB. I doubt general population cares about privacy or even understands what it means.