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I share your feeling. However > pay whatever the market rate would only work if there is a market. And infrastructures like roads are a natural monopoly[0], s

I share your feeling. However > pay whatever the market rate would only work if there is a market. And infrastructures like roads are a natural monopoly[0], so there could be no market. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_monopoly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_monopoly

mothballed 10mo ago
That's weird because there's no public road near me for miles and I can get 90% of the way to "town" without them. I've also connected my private roads to a couple other private roads so no one has a monopoly on my way to town. As for the "barriers to entry" mentioned in that article, is absolutely wild. My road and most the ones in our grid network were made with little more than a dude and a tractor (I think you can get suitable one for $10k off craigslist). I initially made mine with an axe, a light truck, and a rope (to rip out small trees) and there's nothing stopping anyone adjacent from doing the same if I'd block the road.
- dmurray 10mo ago
  Do you understand why this isn't a workable solution for everyone, and likely not even for the last 10% of your journey?
  - mothballed 10mo ago
    It would work beautifully for the last 10% of my journey. The only reason why there are no private roads for the las 10% is the county tax funds that road, and only a complete and utter moron would build a road when their "competitor" has a price of zero at the point of use. People commonly ask why the public road has a monopoly; it's not that they are a natural monopoly but rather that it's literally impossible to compete with someone with zero costs (tax costs already sunk) so places with public roads have ~no competition. The second that road gets defunded by the public coffers, guy with tractor would show back up.
    - trollbridge 10mo ago
      Private roads are actually pretty common, found in older suburban development and in rural areas. I live off of one that is about 300m long. They are unpopular since they effectively require a very small private association to maintain them. They really hurt property values (one reason I bought my place at a bargain price). Most jurisdictions try to prevent creating them because they lead to disputes between neighbours, or poorly maintained private roads become a problem when an emergency vehicle needs to get down one. The budget for local roads is also quite small, since they don’t carry much truck traffic. My township of 5,000 people or so has 3 part time guys who maintain the roads and a few pickup trucks and a dump truck for hauling the asphalt. That’s it. The most expensive part of road maintenance is replacing bridges.
    - sdeframond 10mo ago
      How would you charge for road usage? Would there be a toll at the limit of every property ? How would it be operated ?
dbdr 10mo ago
I don't think the idea is to have a market of roads to chose from. It is to make the existing car market more efficient by fixing the externality of other people paying for the damage you do to the roads by your choice of (heavy) vehicule.
- citrin_ru 10mo ago
  Heavy semi-trailer trucks disproportionally damage the roads, if they'll pay a fair share groceries could become unaffordable.
  - ninalanyon 10mo ago
    Then switch to subsidizing groceries instead of the the delivery method.
    - trollbridge 10mo ago
      Virtually everything is delivered by freight and freight is responsible for almost all road wear and tear. You would have to basically subsidise everything.
  - phantasmish 10mo ago
    Unaffordable? What’s the total cost of all road maintenance vs amount spent on groceries? How about vs all groceries plus all home goods?
    - citrin_ru 10mo ago
      OK, unaffordable is overstatement but increase in transportation costs will translate to some increase in prices and given that food is already around 25% higher (with some items 50% higher) than before COVID this increase will not be welcomed.
  - fourgreen 10mo ago
    Is it true? We, the people, currently pay for roads, we would pay for them in the alternative system - so the total amount of the money we need to pay would not change, only some prices (or taxes) would go down and others would go up. Either we care about having food and we would pay high prices for them (with money we saved elsewhere) or we don't care and we wouldn't pay.

mothballed 10mo ago

That's weird because there's no public road near me for miles and I can get 90% of the way to "town" without them. I've also connected my private roads to a couple other private roads so no one has a monopoly on my way to town. As for the "barriers to entry" mentioned in that article, is absolutely wild. My road and most the ones in our grid network were made with little more than a dude and a tractor (I think you can get suitable one for $10k off craigslist). I initially made mine with an axe, a light truck, and a rope (to rip out small trees) and there's nothing stopping anyone adjacent from doing the same if I'd block the road.

dmurray 10mo ago
Do you understand why this isn't a workable solution for everyone, and likely not even for the last 10% of your journey?
- mothballed 10mo ago
  It would work beautifully for the last 10% of my journey. The only reason why there are no private roads for the las 10% is the county tax funds that road, and only a complete and utter moron would build a road when their "competitor" has a price of zero at the point of use. People commonly ask why the public road has a monopoly; it's not that they are a natural monopoly but rather that it's literally impossible to compete with someone with zero costs (tax costs already sunk) so places with public roads have ~no competition. The second that road gets defunded by the public coffers, guy with tractor would show back up.
  - trollbridge 10mo ago
    Private roads are actually pretty common, found in older suburban development and in rural areas. I live off of one that is about 300m long. They are unpopular since they effectively require a very small private association to maintain them. They really hurt property values (one reason I bought my place at a bargain price). Most jurisdictions try to prevent creating them because they lead to disputes between neighbours, or poorly maintained private roads become a problem when an emergency vehicle needs to get down one. The budget for local roads is also quite small, since they don’t carry much truck traffic. My township of 5,000 people or so has 3 part time guys who maintain the roads and a few pickup trucks and a dump truck for hauling the asphalt. That’s it. The most expensive part of road maintenance is replacing bridges.
  - sdeframond 10mo ago
    How would you charge for road usage? Would there be a toll at the limit of every property ? How would it be operated ?

dbdr 10mo ago

I don't think the idea is to have a market of roads to chose from. It is to make the existing car market more efficient by fixing the externality of other people paying for the damage you do to the roads by your choice of (heavy) vehicule.

citrin_ru 10mo ago
Heavy semi-trailer trucks disproportionally damage the roads, if they'll pay a fair share groceries could become unaffordable.
- ninalanyon 10mo ago
  Then switch to subsidizing groceries instead of the the delivery method.
  - trollbridge 10mo ago
    Virtually everything is delivered by freight and freight is responsible for almost all road wear and tear. You would have to basically subsidise everything.
- phantasmish 10mo ago
  Unaffordable? What’s the total cost of all road maintenance vs amount spent on groceries? How about vs all groceries plus all home goods?
  - citrin_ru 10mo ago
    OK, unaffordable is overstatement but increase in transportation costs will translate to some increase in prices and given that food is already around 25% higher (with some items 50% higher) than before COVID this increase will not be welcomed.
- fourgreen 10mo ago
  Is it true? We, the people, currently pay for roads, we would pay for them in the alternative system - so the total amount of the money we need to pay would not change, only some prices (or taxes) would go down and others would go up. Either we care about having food and we would pay high prices for them (with money we saved elsewhere) or we don't care and we wouldn't pay.