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I think this story brings up an interesting point about startups and "startup culture". It's nice to have an environment that is friendly and comfortable, but a

I think this story brings up an interesting point about startups and "startup culture". It's nice to have an environment that is friendly and comfortable, but at the same time, lines have to be drawn. Unfortunately, some people see having no HR department as an excuse to disregard inclusiveness or respect.

kevingadd 14y ago
To be clear, Kixeye is big and established enough that 'no HR department' is not remotely a plausible explanation for the events that seem to have occurred here.
- tptacek 14y ago
  My own personal ghoulishness lead me to LinkedIn to see if I could spot the terminated manager from cues from the racism posts. I could not, but what I did learn is that Kixeye is stocked to the gills with people from Ivy League schools, McKinseyites, and veterans of the gaming industry. The sample I got from LinkedIn doesn't refute accusations of "bro-" culture, but it doesn't strongly indicate rampant 4chanism or racism. Without intending undue reverence for b-school, you probably don't graduate HBS and work for several years at McKinsey and retain the belief that a culture of jocular bigotry is an asset to a growing San Francisco tech company.
brown9-2 14y ago
I think that this line of reasoning tends to assume that this is a binary decision: either have a fun workplace or have HR and rules. That's not the case though, unless your only idea of run is "joking and acting in a way towards other employees that society finds reprehensible".
- alecdibble 14y ago
  The point I was trying to make is that if there is no HR department, lines have to be drawn about what behavior is appropriate. Sometimes the topic never comes up and then it becomes an issue when there is a misunderstanding or offensive conduct occurs. "joking and acting in a way towards other employees that society finds reprehensible" It really isn't that black and white though. Almost anyone can be offended by any joke or comment, as people come from vastly different backgrounds and experiences. An example is the rape joke made by Notch. Half the people were pissed about it while half couldn't understand why the other half was pissed. It is those kinds of misunderstandings that can create problems in the first place.
flexxaeon 14y ago
It's an interesting point indeed. Lived it for well over a decade now and I still find it's hard to come up with a good solution. Startups, tech companies, new media companies, whatever you want to call them, always want to create fun places to work. And everyone can appreciate that. A usual mantra is "hey we're all friends here" and they attempt to go about that way (sometimes awkwardly). Once friendship is established, especially among younger males from Gen X and Y, jokes/ribbing/dozens are all but inevitable - because that's what friends do. The problem is that some people poorly gauge the limits and take things too far. But such is life. I've always felt that situations like the Kixeye one contribute to the lack of diversity in the tech world. Why would a company want to have to deal with this? I'm reading the Harbin response and while I commend him and Kixeye for taking action (if what happened to that kid was even half true, then it was excessive), when I see "sensitivity training program" and "anonymous, company-wide surveys"...ugh. Who the hell looks forward for that? And what does this do to the company culture, where now you have to worry about not offending people instead of building great products and "being kick ass." It's really difficult to balance diversity, friendly culture and sensitivity. I haven't had to deal with "sensitivity training" at a company but I doubt it's the best maneuver. From my experience, it's a matter of awareness, skin toughness, and even some luck.
- Tipzntrix 14y ago
  It's for the shareholders to minimize legal liability. Anyone can spout as much talk about relaxed, casual, kick ass, rockstar, ninja-like, and whatever the newest buzz word is to describe their workplace, but it just takes one bad incident (or sometimes one overly touchy person, not saying the victim here was though) to have to walk on the eggshells of avoiding lawsuits. In any case, my bet is that the sensitivity training won't even be taken very seriously, but I think the actual shake-up will definitely spark some change. My concern is now that the people fired will probably be even more racist rather than less so because of said punishments, and look again for a safe outlet to spew their hate. They may have learned for their own sake to keep it out of the workplace, but don't think it just got "nipped in the bud". Someone else is going to have to deal with this on what will most likely be a worse level.
rmc 14y ago
It's not "fun" xor "no racism". You can have both!
roguecoder 14y ago
I think it's less about lines being drawn than that those friendly atmospheres shouldn't come at the expense of other people. Sometimes camaraderie is created because thank goodness we're all white and male, not like those useless $SLUR, amiright? It's so great we're all so alike! It's not a great thing; it is setting the company up for failure and making yourself feel better at the expense of other people who don't deserve it.

kevingadd 14y ago

To be clear, Kixeye is big and established enough that 'no HR department' is not remotely a plausible explanation for the events that seem to have occurred here.

tptacek 14y ago
My own personal ghoulishness lead me to LinkedIn to see if I could spot the terminated manager from cues from the racism posts. I could not, but what I did learn is that Kixeye is stocked to the gills with people from Ivy League schools, McKinseyites, and veterans of the gaming industry. The sample I got from LinkedIn doesn't refute accusations of "bro-" culture, but it doesn't strongly indicate rampant 4chanism or racism. Without intending undue reverence for b-school, you probably don't graduate HBS and work for several years at McKinsey and retain the belief that a culture of jocular bigotry is an asset to a growing San Francisco tech company.

brown9-2 14y ago

I think that this line of reasoning tends to assume that this is a binary decision: either have a fun workplace or have HR and rules. That's not the case though, unless your only idea of run is "joking and acting in a way towards other employees that society finds reprehensible".

alecdibble 14y ago
The point I was trying to make is that if there is no HR department, lines have to be drawn about what behavior is appropriate. Sometimes the topic never comes up and then it becomes an issue when there is a misunderstanding or offensive conduct occurs. "joking and acting in a way towards other employees that society finds reprehensible" It really isn't that black and white though. Almost anyone can be offended by any joke or comment, as people come from vastly different backgrounds and experiences. An example is the rape joke made by Notch. Half the people were pissed about it while half couldn't understand why the other half was pissed. It is those kinds of misunderstandings that can create problems in the first place.

flexxaeon 14y ago

It's an interesting point indeed. Lived it for well over a decade now and I still find it's hard to come up with a good solution. Startups, tech companies, new media companies, whatever you want to call them, always want to create fun places to work. And everyone can appreciate that. A usual mantra is "hey we're all friends here" and they attempt to go about that way (sometimes awkwardly). Once friendship is established, especially among younger males from Gen X and Y, jokes/ribbing/dozens are all but inevitable - because that's what friends do. The problem is that some people poorly gauge the limits and take things too far. But such is life. I've always felt that situations like the Kixeye one contribute to the lack of diversity in the tech world. Why would a company want to have to deal with this? I'm reading the Harbin response and while I commend him and Kixeye for taking action (if what happened to that kid was even half true, then it was excessive), when I see "sensitivity training program" and "anonymous, company-wide surveys"...ugh. Who the hell looks forward for that? And what does this do to the company culture, where now you have to worry about not offending people instead of building great products and "being kick ass." It's really difficult to balance diversity, friendly culture and sensitivity. I haven't had to deal with "sensitivity training" at a company but I doubt it's the best maneuver. From my experience, it's a matter of awareness, skin toughness, and even some luck.

Tipzntrix 14y ago
It's for the shareholders to minimize legal liability. Anyone can spout as much talk about relaxed, casual, kick ass, rockstar, ninja-like, and whatever the newest buzz word is to describe their workplace, but it just takes one bad incident (or sometimes one overly touchy person, not saying the victim here was though) to have to walk on the eggshells of avoiding lawsuits. In any case, my bet is that the sensitivity training won't even be taken very seriously, but I think the actual shake-up will definitely spark some change. My concern is now that the people fired will probably be even more racist rather than less so because of said punishments, and look again for a safe outlet to spew their hate. They may have learned for their own sake to keep it out of the workplace, but don't think it just got "nipped in the bud". Someone else is going to have to deal with this on what will most likely be a worse level.

rmc 14y ago

It's not "fun" xor "no racism". You can have both!

roguecoder 14y ago

I think it's less about lines being drawn than that those friendly atmospheres shouldn't come at the expense of other people. Sometimes camaraderie is created because thank goodness we're all white and male, not like those useless $SLUR, amiright? It's so great we're all so alike! It's not a great thing; it is setting the company up for failure and making yourself feel better at the expense of other people who don't deserve it.