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NotJustBikes just put out a video about this issue - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--832LV9a3I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--832LV9a3I A couple years ago

NotJustBikes just put out a video about this issue - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--832LV9a3I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--832LV9a3I A couple years ago he also made a video about these trucks more broadly - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo What's truly maddening is how many of these vehicles which _do not_ meet European safety standards are _already_ in Europe. Walk around Hilversum in the Netherlands and you will see plenty of Dodge Rams (mostly 1500's, but there's even a 2500 Dually usually parked on the sidewalk ("pavement "for Brits) where my kids used to go to school). They're imported under "Individual Vehicle Approval" rules, exempting them from type safety requirements, and on top of that are almost always registered as "business vehicles" (you can tell from the V plate) which means they pay an absolute pittance in tax. I moved here to get away from American kindercrushers (among other reasons) and I am profoundly concerned that Europe is being invaded by these machines. (Edit) Worth noting is that a lot of Dutch street design is based on the idea that people _can_ share space with cars in dense, low speed environments, but that assumption flies out the window when the vehicles are so large you can't even see a kid walking or biking to school. Further edit - source - https://www.motorfinanceonline.com/news/dodge-ram-registrations-surge-in-europe-prompting-calls-for-regulatory-action/ https://www.motorfinanceonline.com/news/dodge-ram-registrati... 5,000 Dodge Rams imported in to Europe in 2023 alone.

consp 11mo ago
Afaik the payout is determined by your insurance, not the opposing party if you are not the cause. They will usually just stick to the standards set by the companies and not argue. They are all business vehicles as the premiums would be so insane no person would pay it (which is a hint why they should not be in the road). The problem comes when the crash out costs the business and then you get nothing due to type of insurance (pretty much we pay nothing you pay everything yourself), or the ability of companies to fight endless court battles which your insurance likely does not cover. My way of middle fingering them is reporting them every time they are either on the curb when there is a parking spot (not legal, blocking pedestrian access is only partially legal when there is no parking pace nearby and you leave enough space), or when they overextend onto the road which is a judgement call and up to the enforcing officer. You also need to keep notice of people trying to get the municipality to widen parking spots and block that.
- CalRobert 11mo ago
  As far as I'm aware, having any wheel on the footpath is illegal except in areas specifically signposted for it, but my experience has been that handhaving just didn't care https://www.parkeerbord.nl/wetgeving/is-parkeren-op-de-stoep-toegestaan-of-verboden/ https://www.parkeerbord.nl/wetgeving/is-parkeren-op-de-stoep... This spot used to drive me absolutely insane when walking to school with my kids - the gemeente even added marked parking spots and drivers just stole the footpath anyway, so we had to walk in the street, and the gemeente straight refused to issue tickets. The guy on the phone told me "it's not causing any trouble" because hey, it's not like _he's_ ever had to push a pram in the street. https://maps.app.goo.gl/YD5w84R19TGQgPX78 https://maps.app.goo.gl/YD5w84R19TGQgPX78
  - arghwhat 11mo ago
    To be fair, parking illegally and/or disrespectfully is not a problem with the vehicle type but with the driver and lack of local enforcement. People also block footpaths, roads and parking spots in Polos and similar smaller vehicles, and plenty of workers cause issues with their regular european cans and pickup trucks. A favorite of mine being small roads with perpendicular parking spots, with an extended Mercedes Sprinter parked so that both footpath and road is restricted.
    - CalRobert 11mo ago
      Rude drivers and lack of enforcement are issues, of course, but bigger vehicles make it even harder to walk around a vehicle on the footpath.
      - arghwhat 11mo ago
        Our regular local European vehicles are often larger, they're just safer. So no, nothing specific to the use of imported vehicles. For example, a Mercedes Sprinter in the standard long box configuration (as is used by local grocery delivery services, plumbers and the likes where I live) is 7.4 meters long , way longer than even the longest American pickup trucks (for some of them, several meters longer!), and is just as wide as them. In custom box or pickup bed configuration (used by e.g., gardeners), these vehicles get wider (and sharper).
lnsru 11mo ago
Absolutely the same with RAMs in Germany. Big toys for rich guys to compensate something small. Takes at least 2 parking spots and doesn’t fit anyway. On other hand the RAMs are not relevant for the average citizen. Crazy fuel consumption is a showstopper. And the ones with some extra cash will continue to import with German „Individual Vehicle Approval“ equivalent. In my eyes it’s another useless European regulation. Let poor people import cheap Toyotas from overseas.
- CalRobert 11mo ago
  They're relevant for the average citizen because they're killing average citizens. A Ram was certainly relevant for this dead woman - https://www.rtl.nl/nieuws/binnenland/artikel/5521908/rouveen-ongeluk-vrouw-overleden-aangereden https://www.rtl.nl/nieuws/binnenland/artikel/5521908/rouveen...
  - lnsru 11mo ago
    Would be the end different if it was another oversized car like X7, G-Klasse or Cayenne? Edit: I am really curious why there is no real vehicle physical size tax in Germany. Let’s take reference as VW Golf. Smaller cars cost less, bigger more. I agree to pay more, but current insanity with RAMs and vans should be somehow regulated.
    - ricardobeat 11mo ago
      It’s possible. Visibility for pedestrians and bicyclists in these trucks is horrendous. It’s so ridiculously bad that even an M1 Abrams tank has less blind spots: https://www.reddit.com/r/fuckcars/comments/140dgn8/many_popular_trucks_have_a_bigger_dead_spot_in/ https://www.reddit.com/r/fuckcars/comments/140dgn8/many_popu...
      - arp242 11mo ago
        A lot could probably be done with a simple "a person 1.80m in length must be able to see a 50cm high object 1 metre in front of the car" or something like that. Just making up numbers here and don't know what would be reasonable, but it seems this doesn't need to be that hard? Weight also matters of course. Hopefully this relatively simple ruling will fix some of that too.
johanvts 11mo ago
It should be illegal, but I do think you might just be living close to some people who really love trucks. 5k is not a lot across Europe, popular models sell 10x that.
- wongarsu 11mo ago
  They are heavily clustered around US military bases. If you life near one you will see a lot if oversized US vehicles, in most of the rest of Europe you can go months or years without seeing one
  - georgefrowny 11mo ago
    Honestly, local governments should just grow a pair and say no to this kind of shit. If the US government wants to give its soldiers perks, they can rent or loan them a local car. Probably cheaper all round than flying/shipping in their financed Dodge RAM anyway. Then again, American personnel being arseholes to the locals is well established from Okinawa to Croughton so it's probably endorsed as a power thing.
  - masklinn 11mo ago
    > They are heavily clustered around US military bases. They’re clustered around areas of idiots with means. I’m nowhere near a us military base but there’s a bunch of these where I live, including two or three owned at houses I pass by on my way to work.
arghwhat 11mo ago
Modern US trucks are an absolute atrocity. I am the demographic that thinks they look cool and might one day have bought one should I end up with more money than I knew what to do with if I hadn't learned that they're death traps. The tall grill means impact to pedestrians, bicyclists and motorcycles is basically instant death as their head - the only thing above the grill - gets whiplashed onto the rigid tip of the hood. On a normal vehicle you get your legs swiped and rotate your whole body onto an intentionally flexible area of the hood for a much gentler impact. The visibility from the driver seat is not only much worse than our actual semis, but also worse than actual tanks. You could have half a kindergarten and a small vehicle in front of your car without knowing. As for the tax, eh - tbf these vehicles are mostly used for business purposes by sole proprietors and the likes, and while they're stupid vehicles they do still do the job. A fully decked Iveco Daily or Mercedes Sprinter is also expensive with little registration tax. Registration tax is a weird (and arguably stupid) system, this isn't really an outlier in that regard. I roll my eyes more when I see a sports car attempted registered as a van.
- VBprogrammer 11mo ago
  > The visibility from the driver seat is not only much worse than our actual semis, but also worse than actual tanks. You could have half a kindergarten and a small vehicle in front of your car without knowing. Yeah, mentioned in a comment, driving a Ford Expedition on holiday in the US I almost hit a hit walking down the sidewalk. It literally had better visibility going backwards in the rear view camera than it did going forwards.
- 0xEF 11mo ago
  Living in the US, what I find even more wild is just how many people purchase them here who have zero need to own a truck that size. It's got to be the most absurd parts of our modern cultural identity. Even if the owner is using it as a rugged machine for hauling tools and supplies back and forth, they make for terrible work vehicles. A bed that's advertised as 6 foot actually measures about 5' 7" if you're lucky and the wheel wells eat into it so much that loading anything wider than maybe 4' just feels stupid. Nothing about it feels convenient or helpful when compared to a proper work van or a small flatbed. It's basically just a comfy exoskeleton for the driver to pickup groceries. Meanwhile, I'm driving from site to site with a 4-cylinder hatchback full of tools in custom boxes I made getting twice the gas mileage. It gets some funny looks, but it gets the job done, which is more than I can say for most of the not-a-scratch-on-them trucks I see on the road, here.
matonias 11mo ago
This morning in Amsterdam a dog got struck and was killed by one of these vehicles, happend right in front of me. Poor doggo
- jacquesm 11mo ago
  What idiot would drive one of these in Amsterdam to begin with? It just doesn't fit the way traffic is organized there.
  - CalRobert 11mo ago
    It doesn't, but people do it. Here's one in Utrecht https://urbanists.social/@Fuzzbizz/109608802470660144 https://urbanists.social/@Fuzzbizz/109608802470660144
    - jacquesm 11mo ago
      That doesn't just seem selfish, it is selfish. And if it was a renovation crew or so carrying tools I would say they at least have some use for it (though a VW transporter would be just as effective, if not more so).
      - ricardobeat 11mo ago
        A Mercedes Vito, despite being nearly 1m shorter and normal car width, has 4-5x the carry capacity and a 3x longer bed than the RAM. These cars are just for show, you can probably find a Kei truck with similar capacity.
        lan321 11mo ago
        > These cars are just for show I love vans more than any vehicle, but they're garbage at offroad compared to trucks (even 4motion, etc can't compare). Most people don't use them for that, but in villa constructions sometimes you really want a pickup to get to the site. They're also better than vans in snow. Edge cases but they exist and they're not so obscure that I haven't experienced them.
Kindercrusher 11mo ago
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kalleboo 11mo ago
> "Individual Vehicle Approval" rules, exempting them from type safety requirements These rules need to start discriminating between "safe for the passenger who bought it" and "safe for everyone else sharing the public space". Let people easily import some old Model T or a cute kei truck but not something that will kill someone else's kids who they can't see.
- mothballed 11mo ago
  I'll always catch hate for saying this, but the quickest way to get people into small more efficient vehicles is to eliminate public roads and make the fuckers pay whatever the market rate is for their super-sized diesel coal rolling environmental destruction machine to be on a road. They'd quickly find out when they're not being subsidized by the general public and people actually have to pay their way to use their vehicles through tolls to people amortizing their road maintenance costs, that the smaller more pedestrian safe cars are the ones that make sense to operate.
  - kalleboo 11mo ago
    Part of me has also been thinking "let people drive their imported huge trucks but with the understanding that if they kill someone in an accident its not just an accident, its a murder charge for willingly driving such a dangerous vehicle on public roads".
    - master-lincoln 11mo ago
      You could argue this for any car as moving such a heavy object at such speeds close to people is inherently high risk.
      - kalleboo 11mo ago
        Yeah there are always levels of risk we as a society have chosen to allow. My thinking was along the lines of how to self-regulate these imports of cars that do not follow the common safety standards our society has chosen if they are forced upon us by trade agreements or well-intentioned loopholes. ("murder" is a bit an extreme reaction but the more realistic idea may be to make harsher judgements the more pointlessly large and dangerous the vehicle is)
roman_soldier 11mo ago
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martijn_himself 11mo ago
This seems to be concerning but as a Dutch person who has lived in the UK for a long time the relatively recent home-grown 'fatbike' issue seems to be a much more pressing problem for Dutch road safety than this and isn't being dealt with effectively as far as I understand. Having said that I think these American pick-ups (and large SUV's, they are part of the same problem) are a common sight here as well and should not be allowed on the road (unless maybe you can show you need one for work or business).
- patall 11mo ago
  I see those in Sweden as well. But I also know that people are stupid. And I rather have a stupid person on a stupid bike than a stupid person in an SUV. Especially since in an accident, they will lose in any case because most are likely not street legal.
- RicoElectrico 11mo ago
  What's wrong with fatbikes? They look stupid for sure, but otherwise?
  - martijn_himself 11mo ago
    They are routinely modified to exceed legal speed limits and owned by 10 year old or younger kids. Going nearly 30mph on a footpath whilst holding a mobile phone. I think they are also unregistered.
    - RicoElectrico 11mo ago
      Oh, you mean they're powered, right?
      - martijn_himself 11mo ago
        Yes- in the Netherlands the term 'fatbike' is pretty much synonymous with the battery powered bikes only (I presume elsewhere this may be different). They are mini motorcycles really- but exempt from all the rules and regulations that would apply to regular motorcycles.
schmuckonwheels 11mo ago
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- tda 11mo ago
  The reasoning is these trucks make no practical or economic sense in Europe. They are not allowed to be sold, because they are dangerous to bystanders, are polluting and oversized. Only through some loophole quite a few have been imported, which is very frustrating to all of us that are intimidated and appalled by seeing these on our roads. These trucs signal that the driver does not care about other people, environment, climate, etc. Because they are dangerous, obnoxious and polluting. And instead of calling these things trucks, I think Kindercrusher is a perfectly apt description.
- CalRobert 11mo ago
  I have two young children and they are endangered by vehicles like this so I agree that I do have emotions regarding this.
- kergonath 11mo ago
  > Okay. But you've posted 12 times already in this thread that isn't even an hour old, mostly emotions and hyperbolics as quoted above. Kindercrushers? FWIW, I am not him but I could have written exactly the same, just changing the location. Yes, we do tend to care when selfish arseholes ruin it for everyone, and put other people’s lives at risk for no good reason. And kindercrusher is a perfectly good description of these things.
sumedh 11mo ago
Monster trucks are becoming increasingly popular in Australia too
- Def_Os 11mo ago
  I've seen that movie!
davedx 11mo ago
And don't even mention the Cybertrucks cruising around who knows where. Granted, I've not seen any parked at the Albert Heijn quite yet.
- embedding-shape 11mo ago
  Luckily I haven't seen a single Cybertruck in the north/north-east of Spain. Pretty sure I'd call the police if I saw one as they're clearly illegal here.
lifestyleguru 11mo ago
These American trucks are driven by Dutch or by eastern Europeans (e.g. from construction industry)? The Dutch cycling culture and urban planning are adorable, but we are terrible selfish assholes especially regarding the cars.
- jahller 11mo ago
  i'm always suprised by the amount of SUVs on Dutch highways. in that regard you are not that different to us Germans.
GaryBluto 11mo ago
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- 4ndrewl 11mo ago
  Most people with bikes also own cars. Don't fall into the algorithmically generated "it's them v us"
  - WreckVenom 11mo ago
    It isn't algorithmically generated. I used to spend a lot of time in cyclist circles both IRL and online and there is a very vocal minority of cyclists that basically hate cars and motorists. The stereotype exists for a reason.
    - oblio 11mo ago
      Watch his videos. At some point he basically says: "I don't even love bikes, but they're useful. If I could choose, I would go by public transit everywhere, especially trams". And he has tons of videos where he explains exactly why: 0. Most of everything he publishes refers to urban areas. 1. Bikes are better for society. 2. Public transit is even better for society. 3. Trams are probably the best form of public transportation (again, for society). He's not a recreational cyclist (light road bike, lycra - sports/racing), he's a utility cyclist (big heavy upright bike, regular clothes - take kids to school, commute, do grocery runs).
      - WreckVenom 11mo ago
        I am not interested. I've heard many of these arguments before and I made up my mind years ago. I know very well that commuting by bicycle in urban areas is often better. I often was quicker through the traffic on my bike than anything else. However it doesn't mean it is better for society. People have different wants and/or needs. Cycling isn't for everyone and it has some significant downsides. e.g. - I've been injured as a result of a hit and run and I as a result I have a permanent weakness in my right shoulder. - I've had my bicycles stolen and/or vandalised. - I've had to endure very harsh conditions to get home e.g Once I was so cold I thought I was going to threw up, I had appropriate clothing on but I was a little ill and that and the cold almost caused me to faint (I was ~25 at the time). As for public transport. I generally dislike public transport. In the UK the public transport is often late, crowded, dirty (sometimes extremely dirty), potentially dangerous (I've been assaulted and have been witness to them). I spent a good 15 years using public transport and passing my driving license and getting a car was a godsend. > He's not a recreational cyclist (light road bike, lycra - sports/racing), he's a utility cyclist (big heavy upright bike, regular clothes - take kids to school, commute, do grocery runs). There is no problem with recreational cyclists as they do it because they enjoy it. I am one. I have an issue with many of the political/activist cyclists that are very obnoxious about their dislike of cars. I don't want anything to do with them. I also don't like "utility cyclists", because it makes it sound like cycling is a chore when it is quite enjoyable, cheap and relatively safe activity that almost anyone can enjoy.
tigerlily 11mo ago
That is a lot of Dodge Rams. It's a ponderous trend, it'd be interesting to see what is the driver. Is it a particular demographic, or subculture? My mom who is originally from Bergschenhoek claims her elder brother taught her to drive, in a Dodge truck, probably post WW2 in a model like this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_T-,_V-,_W-Series https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_T-,_V-,_W-Series I don't know whether there are hordes of bejaarden buying Dodges for nostalgic reasons, but that would mean the Dodge brand has some insane staying power. My guess would be that is absurd and unlikely. I really dig your deadpan sprinkling of Nederlands. Some words have that etymological acuity that makes them irresistible to just deploy. I was always amazed by how many Yiddish and French words there are in Hollands.
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biztos 11mo ago
> they pay an absolute pittance in tax What would be the appropriate tax for them to pay? I suppose it’s based on weight?
- baq 11mo ago
  tax should be applied to things we want less of: - low visibility of little people directly in front of the car: huge tax - low visibility in the rear: tax (yes, rear camera = no tax) - too big to comfortably fit a standard parking space: tax - too big to fit a standard parking space at all: huge tax - too heavy: tax - way too heavy: huge tax - not fuel efficient: tax - emits lots of dark/smelly/toxic smoke: tax/tax more/huge tax etc.
  - biztos 11mo ago
    Aren’t “bad fuel efficiency” and “can’t park in town” already their own priced-in disadvantages? Fuel consumption itself is already taxed at the pump. And I think “too heavy” already means higher tax in NL. The weird thing is that the EU is really not shy about banning things, and yet here we are in a thread about American Monster Trucks taking over Amsterdam.
    - baq 11mo ago
      > Aren’t “bad fuel efficiency” and “can’t park in town” already their own priced-in disadvantages? > Fuel consumption itself is already taxed at the pump. yes to both, but that doesn't mean that extra incentives for high efficiency and extra discouragement nudges for low efficiency shouldn't be present. they're orthogonal features of the economy. > And I think “too heavy” already means higher tax in NL. looks like not high enough, judging by this whole thread :) > The weird thing is that the EU is really not shy about banning things yes, but it's also known for not moving fast, as all large committees are - and when they finally move, the policy response can be deployed for a market which doesn't exist anymore.
wouldbecouldbe 11mo ago
So tired of current trend in Europe, the Goverment should solve every issue & every day everyone wants a new rule. We have now so many rules either they are not enforced or they are making everythingn slow or expensive. Now to solve those issues, they will call for new legislations, but again they will be enforced only for the first 2 weeks. And then again a call for new rules will be made. Take for instance FAT bikes in Netherlands, these are e-bikes with big wheel that young kids like. They drive like madman, harrass women in parks & everybody wants to ban them. But there is already enough legislation to take care of these kids, they are just not enforcing them. And probably rightly so, because they have bigger issues to deal with. Not everything can be solved with a pill.
- bogtog 11mo ago
  Opening that video, American-style pickup trucks are about 40% more likely to kill a pedestrian 100% more likely to kill a child (the video argues that this mostly stems from the shape of the front). These cars also get into more crashes Honestly, banning these things seems sensible when the only thing going for them for most buyers is seemingly an appreciation of their style
  - wouldbecouldbe 11mo ago
    Yeah there is always a reason for a rule that makes sense, but there is also a price for making a new rule everytime something doesnt work.
- prmoustache 11mo ago
  A fat bike is a bike with >3.8" tires and is not necessarily an e-bike nor an issue. Some people use them in the snow, sand or trail without issues to anyone and I have occasionally also used mine in the city because it was more comfortable to ride at slow speed than my road bike and stops on a dime thanks to the available grip. There are a number of trendy aliexpress quality e-bikes that are also using fat tires and are ridden by idiots but the problem is not fat bikes per se. The problem is idiots on unrestricted/modded e-bikes. Ban fat bikes and they will use unrestricted e-bikes with different tires and the problem will be the same.
throw0101a 11mo ago
> […] and on top of that are almost always registered as "business vehicles" (you can tell from the V plate) which means they pay an absolute pittance in tax. In Ontario, Canada, (AIUI) you have to get a commercial car plate for pickup trucks. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_registration_plates_of_Ontario#Commercial_baseplates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_registration_plates_of... If you want personal / non-commercial plates you have to get inspections done: * https://forms.mgcs.gov.on.ca/en/dataset/on00719 https://forms.mgcs.gov.on.ca/en/dataset/on00719
fransje26 11mo ago
> Walk around Hilversum in the Netherlands and you will see plenty of Dodge Rams Which confirms the old adage: "Money does not come with taste".
potato3732842 11mo ago
<facepalm>. This sort of breathless rhetoric from people like you are is exactly why it's a difficult to solve social/political problem rather than a mundane technical optimization issue. They basically banned flip up headlights without any fanfare 30yr ago and it garnered a little complaining from the aesthetics crowd. Those sorts of things can't be done anymore because your ilk has poisoned the well of public policy and discourse. The common man hears your sort of rhetoric, knows he can't reasonably be an expert in the subject matter and the nuances of the statistics, but he can pattern match on how you're saying what you're saying and it matches up with a whole bunch of crap that's been bad for him. Any car shape can be styled well and sold to the public. This ought to be a mundane technical issue. But you people have made this a political football and in doing so made the problem much harder. I really hate the modern high hood truck styling. But I hate it a little less knowing it's followed the problem people to Europe.
ekjhgkejhgk 11mo ago
> I moved here to get away from American kindercrushers (among other reasons) and I am profoundly concerned that Europe is being invaded by these machines. I'm European and I'll go one step further: I'm profoundly concerned that the majority of people in Europe seem happy to imitate all the bad things that the US has, but fiercly reject all the good things that the US has.
- throwaway-11-1 11mo ago
  I assure you I am asking in good faith - but as an American who recently visited Denmark & Norway, I am dying to know what those 'good things' are (only thing I can think of is good Mexican food, but thats not American)
  - dandellion 11mo ago
    One I can think of is that setting up your own company is a pain in the ass, and working as a contractor almost never worth it. I'm in Spain, but I think it applies to many Euro countries, which actually is another one, the exact laws and paperwork are entirely different for each country, though that's not something people actually reject, it's just the nature of having many countries with many different languages.
    - ekjhgkejhgk 11mo ago
      > setting up your own company is a pain in the ass, Depends on the country. Here in the UK you can do it from a website, takes 20 minutes. I responded to the person you're talking to, have a look at what I wrote.
  - ekjhgkejhgk 11mo ago
    Good things of American culture? So, understand that the things I'm about to mention are not universally true for all Americans, obviously. For any feature, there's a statistical distribution over the population of individuals. I'm not saying that "All Americans are more X than all Europeans". I'm saying that "The average American is more X than the average European, even if that difference is dwarfed by the standard deviation within which each of those populations". Here's some that come to mind: 1- positivity. Americans seem to have more of a can do attitude, Europeans start out with the negative belief that attempts will fail and things don't change. 2- friendliness. I lived 1 year in Chicago and in that one year I was approached on the street 3 times by random people who just said "hi, how are you doing? Nice day". In the 10 years I lived in London that happened exactly zero times. 3- shared identity. In Europe there's endless "cultural bickering" between neighboring countries over their miniscule, irrelevant differences. I don't perceive this across American states. The one thing that all Europeans agree on is that we're happy we're not American. How pathetic is that. 4- emphasis of freedom and free speech. 5- work culture (partially). I'm not going to say that I want Europe to emulate American work culture whole sale, because in America there's more abuse from employers and that's a negative aspect. At the same time, one thing I think is great is that in the US it seems that some significant fraction of people actually believe in the jobs they do. In Europe people say that, but we all know it's fake, we're just here for the paycheck. This might just be American positivity spilling into work life. These are all things I've heard Europeans explicitly point to as undesirable: 1- American positivity is fake 2- American friendliness is fake 3- American shared identity is actually lack of identity 4- The concept of Freedom is American propaganda 5- enjoying your job is Stockholm syndrome from being abused by your employer.
everdrive 11mo ago
You know before everything was an SUV, rollover protection (and the associated lack of visibility) was much less important. The SUVs are just as much of a problem as the trucks, but get far less attention.
walletdrainer 11mo ago
> but that assumption flies out the window when the vehicles are so large you can't even see a kid walking or biking to school Is this even true with current models? Surely they have a plenty of cameras and will automatically detect children on the way. Does there exist any evidence to suggest that these cars are particularly dangerous when driven on European roads? Just because traffic in the US is unsafe, does not inherently mean that these cars will be terribly dangerous in Europe.

consp 11mo ago

Afaik the payout is determined by your insurance, not the opposing party if you are not the cause. They will usually just stick to the standards set by the companies and not argue. They are all business vehicles as the premiums would be so insane no person would pay it (which is a hint why they should not be in the road). The problem comes when the crash out costs the business and then you get nothing due to type of insurance (pretty much we pay nothing you pay everything yourself), or the ability of companies to fight endless court battles which your insurance likely does not cover. My way of middle fingering them is reporting them every time they are either on the curb when there is a parking spot (not legal, blocking pedestrian access is only partially legal when there is no parking pace nearby and you leave enough space), or when they overextend onto the road which is a judgement call and up to the enforcing officer. You also need to keep notice of people trying to get the municipality to widen parking spots and block that.

CalRobert 11mo ago
As far as I'm aware, having any wheel on the footpath is illegal except in areas specifically signposted for it, but my experience has been that handhaving just didn't care https://www.parkeerbord.nl/wetgeving/is-parkeren-op-de-stoep-toegestaan-of-verboden/ https://www.parkeerbord.nl/wetgeving/is-parkeren-op-de-stoep... This spot used to drive me absolutely insane when walking to school with my kids - the gemeente even added marked parking spots and drivers just stole the footpath anyway, so we had to walk in the street, and the gemeente straight refused to issue tickets. The guy on the phone told me "it's not causing any trouble" because hey, it's not like _he's_ ever had to push a pram in the street. https://maps.app.goo.gl/YD5w84R19TGQgPX78 https://maps.app.goo.gl/YD5w84R19TGQgPX78
- arghwhat 11mo ago
  To be fair, parking illegally and/or disrespectfully is not a problem with the vehicle type but with the driver and lack of local enforcement. People also block footpaths, roads and parking spots in Polos and similar smaller vehicles, and plenty of workers cause issues with their regular european cans and pickup trucks. A favorite of mine being small roads with perpendicular parking spots, with an extended Mercedes Sprinter parked so that both footpath and road is restricted.
  - CalRobert 11mo ago
    Rude drivers and lack of enforcement are issues, of course, but bigger vehicles make it even harder to walk around a vehicle on the footpath.
    - arghwhat 11mo ago
      Our regular local European vehicles are often larger, they're just safer. So no, nothing specific to the use of imported vehicles. For example, a Mercedes Sprinter in the standard long box configuration (as is used by local grocery delivery services, plumbers and the likes where I live) is 7.4 meters long , way longer than even the longest American pickup trucks (for some of them, several meters longer!), and is just as wide as them. In custom box or pickup bed configuration (used by e.g., gardeners), these vehicles get wider (and sharper).

lnsru 11mo ago

Absolutely the same with RAMs in Germany. Big toys for rich guys to compensate something small. Takes at least 2 parking spots and doesn’t fit anyway. On other hand the RAMs are not relevant for the average citizen. Crazy fuel consumption is a showstopper. And the ones with some extra cash will continue to import with German „Individual Vehicle Approval“ equivalent. In my eyes it’s another useless European regulation. Let poor people import cheap Toyotas from overseas.

CalRobert 11mo ago
They're relevant for the average citizen because they're killing average citizens. A Ram was certainly relevant for this dead woman - https://www.rtl.nl/nieuws/binnenland/artikel/5521908/rouveen-ongeluk-vrouw-overleden-aangereden https://www.rtl.nl/nieuws/binnenland/artikel/5521908/rouveen...
- lnsru 11mo ago
  Would be the end different if it was another oversized car like X7, G-Klasse or Cayenne? Edit: I am really curious why there is no real vehicle physical size tax in Germany. Let’s take reference as VW Golf. Smaller cars cost less, bigger more. I agree to pay more, but current insanity with RAMs and vans should be somehow regulated.
  - ricardobeat 11mo ago
    It’s possible. Visibility for pedestrians and bicyclists in these trucks is horrendous. It’s so ridiculously bad that even an M1 Abrams tank has less blind spots: https://www.reddit.com/r/fuckcars/comments/140dgn8/many_popular_trucks_have_a_bigger_dead_spot_in/ https://www.reddit.com/r/fuckcars/comments/140dgn8/many_popu...
    - arp242 11mo ago
      A lot could probably be done with a simple "a person 1.80m in length must be able to see a 50cm high object 1 metre in front of the car" or something like that. Just making up numbers here and don't know what would be reasonable, but it seems this doesn't need to be that hard? Weight also matters of course. Hopefully this relatively simple ruling will fix some of that too.

johanvts 11mo ago

It should be illegal, but I do think you might just be living close to some people who really love trucks. 5k is not a lot across Europe, popular models sell 10x that.

wongarsu 11mo ago
They are heavily clustered around US military bases. If you life near one you will see a lot if oversized US vehicles, in most of the rest of Europe you can go months or years without seeing one
- georgefrowny 11mo ago
  Honestly, local governments should just grow a pair and say no to this kind of shit. If the US government wants to give its soldiers perks, they can rent or loan them a local car. Probably cheaper all round than flying/shipping in their financed Dodge RAM anyway. Then again, American personnel being arseholes to the locals is well established from Okinawa to Croughton so it's probably endorsed as a power thing.
- masklinn 11mo ago
  > They are heavily clustered around US military bases. They’re clustered around areas of idiots with means. I’m nowhere near a us military base but there’s a bunch of these where I live, including two or three owned at houses I pass by on my way to work.

arghwhat 11mo ago

Modern US trucks are an absolute atrocity. I am the demographic that thinks they look cool and might one day have bought one should I end up with more money than I knew what to do with if I hadn't learned that they're death traps. The tall grill means impact to pedestrians, bicyclists and motorcycles is basically instant death as their head - the only thing above the grill - gets whiplashed onto the rigid tip of the hood. On a normal vehicle you get your legs swiped and rotate your whole body onto an intentionally flexible area of the hood for a much gentler impact. The visibility from the driver seat is not only much worse than our actual semis, but also worse than actual tanks. You could have half a kindergarten and a small vehicle in front of your car without knowing. As for the tax, eh - tbf these vehicles are mostly used for business purposes by sole proprietors and the likes, and while they're stupid vehicles they do still do the job. A fully decked Iveco Daily or Mercedes Sprinter is also expensive with little registration tax. Registration tax is a weird (and arguably stupid) system, this isn't really an outlier in that regard. I roll my eyes more when I see a sports car attempted registered as a van.

VBprogrammer 11mo ago
> The visibility from the driver seat is not only much worse than our actual semis, but also worse than actual tanks. You could have half a kindergarten and a small vehicle in front of your car without knowing. Yeah, mentioned in a comment, driving a Ford Expedition on holiday in the US I almost hit a hit walking down the sidewalk. It literally had better visibility going backwards in the rear view camera than it did going forwards.
0xEF 11mo ago
Living in the US, what I find even more wild is just how many people purchase them here who have zero need to own a truck that size. It's got to be the most absurd parts of our modern cultural identity. Even if the owner is using it as a rugged machine for hauling tools and supplies back and forth, they make for terrible work vehicles. A bed that's advertised as 6 foot actually measures about 5' 7" if you're lucky and the wheel wells eat into it so much that loading anything wider than maybe 4' just feels stupid. Nothing about it feels convenient or helpful when compared to a proper work van or a small flatbed. It's basically just a comfy exoskeleton for the driver to pickup groceries. Meanwhile, I'm driving from site to site with a 4-cylinder hatchback full of tools in custom boxes I made getting twice the gas mileage. It gets some funny looks, but it gets the job done, which is more than I can say for most of the not-a-scratch-on-them trucks I see on the road, here.

matonias 11mo ago

This morning in Amsterdam a dog got struck and was killed by one of these vehicles, happend right in front of me. Poor doggo

jacquesm 11mo ago
What idiot would drive one of these in Amsterdam to begin with? It just doesn't fit the way traffic is organized there.
- CalRobert 11mo ago
  It doesn't, but people do it. Here's one in Utrecht https://urbanists.social/@Fuzzbizz/109608802470660144 https://urbanists.social/@Fuzzbizz/109608802470660144
  - jacquesm 11mo ago
    That doesn't just seem selfish, it is selfish. And if it was a renovation crew or so carrying tools I would say they at least have some use for it (though a VW transporter would be just as effective, if not more so).
    - ricardobeat 11mo ago
      A Mercedes Vito, despite being nearly 1m shorter and normal car width, has 4-5x the carry capacity and a 3x longer bed than the RAM. These cars are just for show, you can probably find a Kei truck with similar capacity.
      - lan321 11mo ago
        > These cars are just for show I love vans more than any vehicle, but they're garbage at offroad compared to trucks (even 4motion, etc can't compare). Most people don't use them for that, but in villa constructions sometimes you really want a pickup to get to the site. They're also better than vans in snow. Edge cases but they exist and they're not so obscure that I haven't experienced them.

Kindercrusher 11mo ago

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kalleboo 11mo ago

> "Individual Vehicle Approval" rules, exempting them from type safety requirements These rules need to start discriminating between "safe for the passenger who bought it" and "safe for everyone else sharing the public space". Let people easily import some old Model T or a cute kei truck but not something that will kill someone else's kids who they can't see.

mothballed 11mo ago
I'll always catch hate for saying this, but the quickest way to get people into small more efficient vehicles is to eliminate public roads and make the fuckers pay whatever the market rate is for their super-sized diesel coal rolling environmental destruction machine to be on a road. They'd quickly find out when they're not being subsidized by the general public and people actually have to pay their way to use their vehicles through tolls to people amortizing their road maintenance costs, that the smaller more pedestrian safe cars are the ones that make sense to operate.
- kalleboo 11mo ago
  Part of me has also been thinking "let people drive their imported huge trucks but with the understanding that if they kill someone in an accident its not just an accident, its a murder charge for willingly driving such a dangerous vehicle on public roads".
  - master-lincoln 11mo ago
    You could argue this for any car as moving such a heavy object at such speeds close to people is inherently high risk.
    - kalleboo 11mo ago
      Yeah there are always levels of risk we as a society have chosen to allow. My thinking was along the lines of how to self-regulate these imports of cars that do not follow the common safety standards our society has chosen if they are forced upon us by trade agreements or well-intentioned loopholes. ("murder" is a bit an extreme reaction but the more realistic idea may be to make harsher judgements the more pointlessly large and dangerous the vehicle is)

roman_soldier 11mo ago

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martijn_himself 11mo ago

This seems to be concerning but as a Dutch person who has lived in the UK for a long time the relatively recent home-grown 'fatbike' issue seems to be a much more pressing problem for Dutch road safety than this and isn't being dealt with effectively as far as I understand. Having said that I think these American pick-ups (and large SUV's, they are part of the same problem) are a common sight here as well and should not be allowed on the road (unless maybe you can show you need one for work or business).

patall 11mo ago
I see those in Sweden as well. But I also know that people are stupid. And I rather have a stupid person on a stupid bike than a stupid person in an SUV. Especially since in an accident, they will lose in any case because most are likely not street legal.
RicoElectrico 11mo ago
What's wrong with fatbikes? They look stupid for sure, but otherwise?
- martijn_himself 11mo ago
  They are routinely modified to exceed legal speed limits and owned by 10 year old or younger kids. Going nearly 30mph on a footpath whilst holding a mobile phone. I think they are also unregistered.
  - RicoElectrico 11mo ago
    Oh, you mean they're powered, right?
    - martijn_himself 11mo ago
      Yes- in the Netherlands the term 'fatbike' is pretty much synonymous with the battery powered bikes only (I presume elsewhere this may be different). They are mini motorcycles really- but exempt from all the rules and regulations that would apply to regular motorcycles.

schmuckonwheels 11mo ago

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tda 11mo ago
The reasoning is these trucks make no practical or economic sense in Europe. They are not allowed to be sold, because they are dangerous to bystanders, are polluting and oversized. Only through some loophole quite a few have been imported, which is very frustrating to all of us that are intimidated and appalled by seeing these on our roads. These trucs signal that the driver does not care about other people, environment, climate, etc. Because they are dangerous, obnoxious and polluting. And instead of calling these things trucks, I think Kindercrusher is a perfectly apt description.
CalRobert 11mo ago
I have two young children and they are endangered by vehicles like this so I agree that I do have emotions regarding this.
kergonath 11mo ago
> Okay. But you've posted 12 times already in this thread that isn't even an hour old, mostly emotions and hyperbolics as quoted above. Kindercrushers? FWIW, I am not him but I could have written exactly the same, just changing the location. Yes, we do tend to care when selfish arseholes ruin it for everyone, and put other people’s lives at risk for no good reason. And kindercrusher is a perfectly good description of these things.

sumedh 11mo ago

Monster trucks are becoming increasingly popular in Australia too

Def_Os 11mo ago
I've seen that movie!

davedx 11mo ago

And don't even mention the Cybertrucks cruising around who knows where. Granted, I've not seen any parked at the Albert Heijn quite yet.

embedding-shape 11mo ago
Luckily I haven't seen a single Cybertruck in the north/north-east of Spain. Pretty sure I'd call the police if I saw one as they're clearly illegal here.

lifestyleguru 11mo ago

These American trucks are driven by Dutch or by eastern Europeans (e.g. from construction industry)? The Dutch cycling culture and urban planning are adorable, but we are terrible selfish assholes especially regarding the cars.

jahller 11mo ago
i'm always suprised by the amount of SUVs on Dutch highways. in that regard you are not that different to us Germans.

GaryBluto 11mo ago

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4ndrewl 11mo ago
Most people with bikes also own cars. Don't fall into the algorithmically generated "it's them v us"
- WreckVenom 11mo ago
  It isn't algorithmically generated. I used to spend a lot of time in cyclist circles both IRL and online and there is a very vocal minority of cyclists that basically hate cars and motorists. The stereotype exists for a reason.
  - oblio 11mo ago
    Watch his videos. At some point he basically says: "I don't even love bikes, but they're useful. If I could choose, I would go by public transit everywhere, especially trams". And he has tons of videos where he explains exactly why: 0. Most of everything he publishes refers to urban areas. 1. Bikes are better for society. 2. Public transit is even better for society. 3. Trams are probably the best form of public transportation (again, for society). He's not a recreational cyclist (light road bike, lycra - sports/racing), he's a utility cyclist (big heavy upright bike, regular clothes - take kids to school, commute, do grocery runs).
    - WreckVenom 11mo ago
      I am not interested. I've heard many of these arguments before and I made up my mind years ago. I know very well that commuting by bicycle in urban areas is often better. I often was quicker through the traffic on my bike than anything else. However it doesn't mean it is better for society. People have different wants and/or needs. Cycling isn't for everyone and it has some significant downsides. e.g. - I've been injured as a result of a hit and run and I as a result I have a permanent weakness in my right shoulder. - I've had my bicycles stolen and/or vandalised. - I've had to endure very harsh conditions to get home e.g Once I was so cold I thought I was going to threw up, I had appropriate clothing on but I was a little ill and that and the cold almost caused me to faint (I was ~25 at the time). As for public transport. I generally dislike public transport. In the UK the public transport is often late, crowded, dirty (sometimes extremely dirty), potentially dangerous (I've been assaulted and have been witness to them). I spent a good 15 years using public transport and passing my driving license and getting a car was a godsend. > He's not a recreational cyclist (light road bike, lycra - sports/racing), he's a utility cyclist (big heavy upright bike, regular clothes - take kids to school, commute, do grocery runs). There is no problem with recreational cyclists as they do it because they enjoy it. I am one. I have an issue with many of the political/activist cyclists that are very obnoxious about their dislike of cars. I don't want anything to do with them. I also don't like "utility cyclists", because it makes it sound like cycling is a chore when it is quite enjoyable, cheap and relatively safe activity that almost anyone can enjoy.

tigerlily 11mo ago

That is a lot of Dodge Rams. It's a ponderous trend, it'd be interesting to see what is the driver. Is it a particular demographic, or subculture? My mom who is originally from Bergschenhoek claims her elder brother taught her to drive, in a Dodge truck, probably post WW2 in a model like this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_T-,_V-,_W-Series https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_T-,_V-,_W-Series I don't know whether there are hordes of bejaarden buying Dodges for nostalgic reasons, but that would mean the Dodge brand has some insane staying power. My guess would be that is absurd and unlikely. I really dig your deadpan sprinkling of Nederlands. Some words have that etymological acuity that makes them irresistible to just deploy. I was always amazed by how many Yiddish and French words there are in Hollands.

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biztos 11mo ago

> they pay an absolute pittance in tax What would be the appropriate tax for them to pay? I suppose it’s based on weight?

baq 11mo ago
tax should be applied to things we want less of: - low visibility of little people directly in front of the car: huge tax - low visibility in the rear: tax (yes, rear camera = no tax) - too big to comfortably fit a standard parking space: tax - too big to fit a standard parking space at all: huge tax - too heavy: tax - way too heavy: huge tax - not fuel efficient: tax - emits lots of dark/smelly/toxic smoke: tax/tax more/huge tax etc.
- biztos 11mo ago
  Aren’t “bad fuel efficiency” and “can’t park in town” already their own priced-in disadvantages? Fuel consumption itself is already taxed at the pump. And I think “too heavy” already means higher tax in NL. The weird thing is that the EU is really not shy about banning things, and yet here we are in a thread about American Monster Trucks taking over Amsterdam.
  - baq 11mo ago
    > Aren’t “bad fuel efficiency” and “can’t park in town” already their own priced-in disadvantages? > Fuel consumption itself is already taxed at the pump. yes to both, but that doesn't mean that extra incentives for high efficiency and extra discouragement nudges for low efficiency shouldn't be present. they're orthogonal features of the economy. > And I think “too heavy” already means higher tax in NL. looks like not high enough, judging by this whole thread :) > The weird thing is that the EU is really not shy about banning things yes, but it's also known for not moving fast, as all large committees are - and when they finally move, the policy response can be deployed for a market which doesn't exist anymore.

wouldbecouldbe 11mo ago

So tired of current trend in Europe, the Goverment should solve every issue & every day everyone wants a new rule. We have now so many rules either they are not enforced or they are making everythingn slow or expensive. Now to solve those issues, they will call for new legislations, but again they will be enforced only for the first 2 weeks. And then again a call for new rules will be made. Take for instance FAT bikes in Netherlands, these are e-bikes with big wheel that young kids like. They drive like madman, harrass women in parks & everybody wants to ban them. But there is already enough legislation to take care of these kids, they are just not enforcing them. And probably rightly so, because they have bigger issues to deal with. Not everything can be solved with a pill.

bogtog 11mo ago
Opening that video, American-style pickup trucks are about 40% more likely to kill a pedestrian 100% more likely to kill a child (the video argues that this mostly stems from the shape of the front). These cars also get into more crashes Honestly, banning these things seems sensible when the only thing going for them for most buyers is seemingly an appreciation of their style
- wouldbecouldbe 11mo ago
  Yeah there is always a reason for a rule that makes sense, but there is also a price for making a new rule everytime something doesnt work.
prmoustache 11mo ago
A fat bike is a bike with >3.8" tires and is not necessarily an e-bike nor an issue. Some people use them in the snow, sand or trail without issues to anyone and I have occasionally also used mine in the city because it was more comfortable to ride at slow speed than my road bike and stops on a dime thanks to the available grip. There are a number of trendy aliexpress quality e-bikes that are also using fat tires and are ridden by idiots but the problem is not fat bikes per se. The problem is idiots on unrestricted/modded e-bikes. Ban fat bikes and they will use unrestricted e-bikes with different tires and the problem will be the same.

throw0101a 11mo ago

> […] and on top of that are almost always registered as "business vehicles" (you can tell from the V plate) which means they pay an absolute pittance in tax. In Ontario, Canada, (AIUI) you have to get a commercial car plate for pickup trucks. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_registration_plates_of_Ontario#Commercial_baseplates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_registration_plates_of... If you want personal / non-commercial plates you have to get inspections done: * https://forms.mgcs.gov.on.ca/en/dataset/on00719 https://forms.mgcs.gov.on.ca/en/dataset/on00719

fransje26 11mo ago

> Walk around Hilversum in the Netherlands and you will see plenty of Dodge Rams Which confirms the old adage: "Money does not come with taste".

potato3732842 11mo ago

<facepalm>. This sort of breathless rhetoric from people like you are is exactly why it's a difficult to solve social/political problem rather than a mundane technical optimization issue. They basically banned flip up headlights without any fanfare 30yr ago and it garnered a little complaining from the aesthetics crowd. Those sorts of things can't be done anymore because your ilk has poisoned the well of public policy and discourse. The common man hears your sort of rhetoric, knows he can't reasonably be an expert in the subject matter and the nuances of the statistics, but he can pattern match on how you're saying what you're saying and it matches up with a whole bunch of crap that's been bad for him. Any car shape can be styled well and sold to the public. This ought to be a mundane technical issue. But you people have made this a political football and in doing so made the problem much harder. I really hate the modern high hood truck styling. But I hate it a little less knowing it's followed the problem people to Europe.

ekjhgkejhgk 11mo ago

> I moved here to get away from American kindercrushers (among other reasons) and I am profoundly concerned that Europe is being invaded by these machines. I'm European and I'll go one step further: I'm profoundly concerned that the majority of people in Europe seem happy to imitate all the bad things that the US has, but fiercly reject all the good things that the US has.

throwaway-11-1 11mo ago
I assure you I am asking in good faith - but as an American who recently visited Denmark & Norway, I am dying to know what those 'good things' are (only thing I can think of is good Mexican food, but thats not American)
- dandellion 11mo ago
  One I can think of is that setting up your own company is a pain in the ass, and working as a contractor almost never worth it. I'm in Spain, but I think it applies to many Euro countries, which actually is another one, the exact laws and paperwork are entirely different for each country, though that's not something people actually reject, it's just the nature of having many countries with many different languages.
  - ekjhgkejhgk 11mo ago
    > setting up your own company is a pain in the ass, Depends on the country. Here in the UK you can do it from a website, takes 20 minutes. I responded to the person you're talking to, have a look at what I wrote.
- ekjhgkejhgk 11mo ago
  Good things of American culture? So, understand that the things I'm about to mention are not universally true for all Americans, obviously. For any feature, there's a statistical distribution over the population of individuals. I'm not saying that "All Americans are more X than all Europeans". I'm saying that "The average American is more X than the average European, even if that difference is dwarfed by the standard deviation within which each of those populations". Here's some that come to mind: 1- positivity. Americans seem to have more of a can do attitude, Europeans start out with the negative belief that attempts will fail and things don't change. 2- friendliness. I lived 1 year in Chicago and in that one year I was approached on the street 3 times by random people who just said "hi, how are you doing? Nice day". In the 10 years I lived in London that happened exactly zero times. 3- shared identity. In Europe there's endless "cultural bickering" between neighboring countries over their miniscule, irrelevant differences. I don't perceive this across American states. The one thing that all Europeans agree on is that we're happy we're not American. How pathetic is that. 4- emphasis of freedom and free speech. 5- work culture (partially). I'm not going to say that I want Europe to emulate American work culture whole sale, because in America there's more abuse from employers and that's a negative aspect. At the same time, one thing I think is great is that in the US it seems that some significant fraction of people actually believe in the jobs they do. In Europe people say that, but we all know it's fake, we're just here for the paycheck. This might just be American positivity spilling into work life. These are all things I've heard Europeans explicitly point to as undesirable: 1- American positivity is fake 2- American friendliness is fake 3- American shared identity is actually lack of identity 4- The concept of Freedom is American propaganda 5- enjoying your job is Stockholm syndrome from being abused by your employer.

everdrive 11mo ago

You know before everything was an SUV, rollover protection (and the associated lack of visibility) was much less important. The SUVs are just as much of a problem as the trucks, but get far less attention.

walletdrainer 11mo ago

> but that assumption flies out the window when the vehicles are so large you can't even see a kid walking or biking to school Is this even true with current models? Surely they have a plenty of cameras and will automatically detect children on the way. Does there exist any evidence to suggest that these cars are particularly dangerous when driven on European roads? Just because traffic in the US is unsafe, does not inherently mean that these cars will be terribly dangerous in Europe.