4 ms·

It isn't "China" which open-source LLMs, but individual Chinese labs. China didn't yet made a sovereign move on AI, besides investing in research/hardware.

iambateman 11mo ago
This is a distinction without a difference.
baq 11mo ago
Axiom of China: nothing of importance happens in China without CCP involvement.
- yorwba 11mo ago
  The CCP controlling the government doesn't mean they micromanage everything. Some Chinese AI companies release the weights of even their best models (DeepSeek, Moonshot AI), others release weights for small models, but not the largest ones (Alibaba, Baidu), some keep almost everything closed (Bytedance and iFlytek, I think). There is no CCP master plan for open models, any more than there is a Western master plan for ignoring Chinese models only available as an API.
  - baq 11mo ago
    Never suggested anything of the sort, involvement doesn’t mean direct control, it might be a passive ‘let us know if there’s progress’ issued privately, it might also be a passive ‘we want to be #1 in AI in 2030’ announced publicly, neither requires any micromanagement whatsoever: CCP’s expectation is companies figuring out how to align to party directives themselves… or face consequences.
    - shroobani 11mo ago
      Unlike the US, where there are no consequences for not aligning with the ruling party's directives.
      - mlinhares 11mo ago
        The US couldn't make China follow it, so it is now following China's lead LOL.
      - baq 11mo ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism (not that I disagree)
      - throw10920 11mo ago
        This isn't even whataboutism, because the comparison is just insane. The difference between the CCP, where "private" companies must actively pursue the party's strategic interests or cease to exist (and their executives/employees can be killed), and the US, where neither of those things happen and the worst penalty for a company not following the government's direction (while continuing to follow the law, which should be an obvious caveat) is the occasional fine for not complying with regulation or losing preference for government contracts, is categorical. Only those who are either totally ignorant or seeking to spread propaganda would even compare the two.
    - antonvs 11mo ago
      In other words, your original comment was pointless speculation with no real basis.
      - baq 11mo ago
        you're welcome to educate yourself if you don't trust anons on the internet.
        antonvs 11mo ago
        It’s not a question of “not trusting”, it’s simply recognizing when they (you) are obviously wrong.
  - jimbo808 11mo ago
    They don't have to micromanage companies. A company's activities must align with the goals of the CCP, or it will not continue to exist. This produces companies that will micromanage themselves in accordance with the CCP's strategic vision.
    - antonvs 11mo ago
      That seems irrelevant in this case, given that China has companies all over the spectrum in terms of the degree of openness of their AI products.
throwup238 11mo ago
As far as I can tell AI is already playing a big part in the Chinese Fifteenth five year plan (2026-2030) which is their central top-down planning mechanism. That’s about as big a move as they can make.
- esafak 11mo ago
  I think the plan is due next March? I believe it includes at AI Plus initiative: https://triviumchina.com/research/the-ai-plus-initiative-chinas-blueprint-for-ai-diffusion/ https://triviumchina.com/research/the-ai-plus-initiative-chi...
reissbaker 11mo ago
I think "investing in research and hardware" is fairly relevant to my claim of "China has been investing in open-source LLMs." China also has partial ownership of several major labs via "golden shares" [1] like Alibaba (Qwen) and Zai (GLM) [2], albeit not DeepSeek as far as I know. 1: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/13/china-to-take-golden-shares-in-tech-firms-alibaba-and-tencent https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/13/china-to-take-... 2: https://www.globalneighbours.org/chinas-zhipu-ai-secures-140-million-investment-from-shanghai-state-funds-amid-ipo-push/ https://www.globalneighbours.org/chinas-zhipu-ai-secures-140...

iambateman 11mo ago

This is a distinction without a difference.

baq 11mo ago

Axiom of China: nothing of importance happens in China without CCP involvement.

yorwba 11mo ago
The CCP controlling the government doesn't mean they micromanage everything. Some Chinese AI companies release the weights of even their best models (DeepSeek, Moonshot AI), others release weights for small models, but not the largest ones (Alibaba, Baidu), some keep almost everything closed (Bytedance and iFlytek, I think). There is no CCP master plan for open models, any more than there is a Western master plan for ignoring Chinese models only available as an API.
- baq 11mo ago
  Never suggested anything of the sort, involvement doesn’t mean direct control, it might be a passive ‘let us know if there’s progress’ issued privately, it might also be a passive ‘we want to be #1 in AI in 2030’ announced publicly, neither requires any micromanagement whatsoever: CCP’s expectation is companies figuring out how to align to party directives themselves… or face consequences.
  - shroobani 11mo ago
    Unlike the US, where there are no consequences for not aligning with the ruling party's directives.
    - mlinhares 11mo ago
      The US couldn't make China follow it, so it is now following China's lead LOL.
    - baq 11mo ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism (not that I disagree)
    - throw10920 11mo ago
      This isn't even whataboutism, because the comparison is just insane. The difference between the CCP, where "private" companies must actively pursue the party's strategic interests or cease to exist (and their executives/employees can be killed), and the US, where neither of those things happen and the worst penalty for a company not following the government's direction (while continuing to follow the law, which should be an obvious caveat) is the occasional fine for not complying with regulation or losing preference for government contracts, is categorical. Only those who are either totally ignorant or seeking to spread propaganda would even compare the two.
  - antonvs 11mo ago
    In other words, your original comment was pointless speculation with no real basis.
    - baq 11mo ago
      you're welcome to educate yourself if you don't trust anons on the internet.
      - antonvs 11mo ago
        It’s not a question of “not trusting”, it’s simply recognizing when they (you) are obviously wrong.
- jimbo808 11mo ago
  They don't have to micromanage companies. A company's activities must align with the goals of the CCP, or it will not continue to exist. This produces companies that will micromanage themselves in accordance with the CCP's strategic vision.
  - antonvs 11mo ago
    That seems irrelevant in this case, given that China has companies all over the spectrum in terms of the degree of openness of their AI products.

throwup238 11mo ago

As far as I can tell AI is already playing a big part in the Chinese Fifteenth five year plan (2026-2030) which is their central top-down planning mechanism. That’s about as big a move as they can make.

esafak 11mo ago
I think the plan is due next March? I believe it includes at AI Plus initiative: https://triviumchina.com/research/the-ai-plus-initiative-chinas-blueprint-for-ai-diffusion/ https://triviumchina.com/research/the-ai-plus-initiative-chi...

reissbaker 11mo ago

I think "investing in research and hardware" is fairly relevant to my claim of "China has been investing in open-source LLMs." China also has partial ownership of several major labs via "golden shares" [1] like Alibaba (Qwen) and Zai (GLM) [2], albeit not DeepSeek as far as I know. 1: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/13/china-to-take-golden-shares-in-tech-firms-alibaba-and-tencent https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/13/china-to-take-... 2: https://www.globalneighbours.org/chinas-zhipu-ai-secures-140-million-investment-from-shanghai-state-funds-amid-ipo-push/ https://www.globalneighbours.org/chinas-zhipu-ai-secures-140...