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What is most bizarre to me is that someone could actually do this and do it more than once. Why wouldn't people feel bad about scamming someone like this? You

What is most bizarre to me is that someone could actually do this and do it more than once. Why wouldn't people feel bad about scamming someone like this? You have to talk to someone, get them on your side, and then scam them? I could maybe imagine myself in an alternate universe doing something like this, perhaps enjoying a sort of "heist" feeling like when you're playing poker and no one's aware that you're totally prepared to take the table. But if I succeeded (at the scamming call) I'm sure I would feel devastated that I just did that to someone. Maybe I'm just supremely naive, but it seems hard for me to imagine anyone I've ever met in my life scamming someone like this. It seems so completely incredible that it could ever happen on such a large scale. -------------- Is there something in a culture (besides wealth discrepancy per se) that makes this sort of thing more OK?

thehigherlife 14y ago
Your poker analogy is also not really the same thing either. In the scammers case he's already made the decision that him having your money is better than you, but also you haven't actually made a choice to part with your money at the front of the 'game'. In your poker analogy everyone who sits at that table understands the risk of being there.
illuminate 14y ago
Sadly, a great many people in this world do not think as you do.
jiggy2011 14y ago
These people are from poor countries like India , Pakistan , Nigeria etc. They probably imagine you as some affluent white guy with servants and sports cars who wouldn't miss a few K from his bank account.
- dbecker 14y ago
  I work with people from India on a daily basis. I think their understanding of american lifestyles is more accurate than you give them credit for.
  - Domenic_S 14y ago
    While the GP's comment might be a little... racist? isn't your own experience prejudiced as well? I certainly wouldn't characterize the entirety of the US by the people I work with in the Valley.
    - jiggy2011 14y ago
      I really don't think I am being racist, it's no secret that the west is more affluent than many of these countries and not a stretch to imagine that being used as a reason to justify this sort of behaviour.
      - dbecker 14y ago
        I agree with your main point (that the difference in lifestyles can be used to justify scamming comparatively wealthy westerners.) I just thought you were overstating their view of the difference in statements like "wouldn't miss a few k in his bank account."
        jiggy2011 14y ago
        I was exaggerating for effect, I have no idea what they really think.
  - Mvandenbergh 14y ago
    There is probably a pretty big social gulf between the people working these boiler room scams and your colleagues.
drumdance 14y ago
Sociopaths don't care about other people. At all.
- jetti 14y ago
  I wouldn't classify these kinds of people as sociopaths, just opportunists.
  - ChuckMcM 14y ago
    I would guess that the 'successful' ones have a higher percentage of sociopaths in their group than the general population.
- jeltz 14y ago
  I doubt all of them are sociopaths. Most of them probably are just good at rationalizing to themselves why it is not wrong. Maybe the victims deserve it, maybe they need the money and will just scam one or two more before they quit, etc.
scarmig 14y ago
A point I'd make is that we don't know how their internal processes are set up. There's definitely a bad actor somewhere, but it probably isn't the people you talk to. Pretty much everyone universally reports that these aren't skilled workers. They're given a script, and they read it out. Their job is to deal with branches effectively and direct the conversation back on the script. They've been told that the person they're talking to has a virus--as reported by the company's skilled team of real elite computer gurus who claim to have fancy degrees from IIT or something--and they're apprentices who have the ability to help out those poor souls who probably have actually been downloading viruses of one sort or another. There's no reason for them not to believe that the procedure that they've been given is something that will help their marks. The list of phone numbers? They definitely don't generate that themselves. I can imagine a workflow that insulates them from anything that reveals that they're pawns in a scam. Combine that with the fact that the job is probably relatively decently paying and "white collar" and the natural human aversion to thinking that you're doing a bad thing, and we've got an explanation. Modern companies rely on abstraction as much as they can. If you build a service oriented architecture for your company, you decouple the explicitly evil part of what you do that requires a uniquely sociopathic personality from the more banal customer service oriented part that can be fulfilled by commodity labor.
- andrewflnr 14y ago
  An exquisite application of Hanlon's razor.
  - reedlaw 14y ago
    That it is, but I find it hard to imagine people doing this day after day without any inkling that what they're doing is somehow wrong.
mike_ivanov 14y ago
What exactly would make you feel bad about doing it? It's a very interesting thing to think about btw.
fghh45sdfhr3 14y ago
Why wouldn't people feel bad about scamming someone like this? I envy your innocence. Let my try to explain this with evolutionary algorithms. People have been running simulations of social life for many years. That's how we know that social contract "cheaters" naturally evolve. The same type of simulations have shown how "punishers" also evolve. And how complex group dynamics become long terms stable with all of these roles and then some. Is there something in a culture (besides wealth discrepancy per se) that makes this sort of thing more OK? No, this is universally true of humanity.
- felipemnoa 14y ago
  >>Let my try to explain this with evolutionary algorithms Is it me or did you not actually explain anything. It sounds very interesting but you just gave an introduction.
  - fghh45sdfhr3 14y ago
    You are correct. I kind of ran out of steam there. Here is a bit more: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07418820000094781 http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07418820000094781
jusben1369 14y ago
Well there's an awful lot of "demand" that's manufactured in commerce. I suspect, but have no idea, that the pitch goes something like "Nearly every window machine has performance issues that we can improve. Our methods for getting people to help us clean up their registries etc are a little unorthodox but in the end our customers have faster machines and are happy with the service" or some variation. And you're not asking too many questions if you get the chance to make 2x your other job options and talk to Westerners all day.
rburhum 14y ago
Sadly, you can create a structure to rationalize any behavior that is destructive to other human beings as "good". Operating/creating a machine that causes death is quite often reframed as "defend" or "save lives" in certain situations that stretches this definition. This happens is a "large scale" everywhere. I think implying that it is something inherent to the place (or the culture) where the scam is taking place is utterly wrong. The reason in this case for the scam to come from India is not cultural - it is simply a case of economics.
nl 14y ago
I played the who dumb user thing for a while with one scammer until I got bored. Then I went for the guilt trip: "how do you feel trying to destroy people who don't know how to protect themselves", etc etc. The guy did the whole "I don't know what you mean blah blah blah" for a while, and then said he'd get his boss. I heard him talking to the boss for around 30 seconds, and then the phone hung up. I came out of it convinced (in this case at least) that the person on the phone really had no idea they were running a scam - they were just given a list of numbers to call and a script to run.
enneff 14y ago
Many Indian call center employees have been abused very badly by foreigners, so I am not surprised these scammers can find people to work for them.

thehigherlife 14y ago

Your poker analogy is also not really the same thing either. In the scammers case he's already made the decision that him having your money is better than you, but also you haven't actually made a choice to part with your money at the front of the 'game'. In your poker analogy everyone who sits at that table understands the risk of being there.

illuminate 14y ago

Sadly, a great many people in this world do not think as you do.

jiggy2011 14y ago

These people are from poor countries like India , Pakistan , Nigeria etc. They probably imagine you as some affluent white guy with servants and sports cars who wouldn't miss a few K from his bank account.

dbecker 14y ago
I work with people from India on a daily basis. I think their understanding of american lifestyles is more accurate than you give them credit for.
- Domenic_S 14y ago
  While the GP's comment might be a little... racist? isn't your own experience prejudiced as well? I certainly wouldn't characterize the entirety of the US by the people I work with in the Valley.
  - jiggy2011 14y ago
    I really don't think I am being racist, it's no secret that the west is more affluent than many of these countries and not a stretch to imagine that being used as a reason to justify this sort of behaviour.
    - dbecker 14y ago
      I agree with your main point (that the difference in lifestyles can be used to justify scamming comparatively wealthy westerners.) I just thought you were overstating their view of the difference in statements like "wouldn't miss a few k in his bank account."
      - jiggy2011 14y ago
        I was exaggerating for effect, I have no idea what they really think.
- Mvandenbergh 14y ago
  There is probably a pretty big social gulf between the people working these boiler room scams and your colleagues.

drumdance 14y ago

Sociopaths don't care about other people. At all.

jetti 14y ago
I wouldn't classify these kinds of people as sociopaths, just opportunists.
- ChuckMcM 14y ago
  I would guess that the 'successful' ones have a higher percentage of sociopaths in their group than the general population.
jeltz 14y ago
I doubt all of them are sociopaths. Most of them probably are just good at rationalizing to themselves why it is not wrong. Maybe the victims deserve it, maybe they need the money and will just scam one or two more before they quit, etc.

scarmig 14y ago

A point I'd make is that we don't know how their internal processes are set up. There's definitely a bad actor somewhere, but it probably isn't the people you talk to. Pretty much everyone universally reports that these aren't skilled workers. They're given a script, and they read it out. Their job is to deal with branches effectively and direct the conversation back on the script. They've been told that the person they're talking to has a virus--as reported by the company's skilled team of real elite computer gurus who claim to have fancy degrees from IIT or something--and they're apprentices who have the ability to help out those poor souls who probably have actually been downloading viruses of one sort or another. There's no reason for them not to believe that the procedure that they've been given is something that will help their marks. The list of phone numbers? They definitely don't generate that themselves. I can imagine a workflow that insulates them from anything that reveals that they're pawns in a scam. Combine that with the fact that the job is probably relatively decently paying and "white collar" and the natural human aversion to thinking that you're doing a bad thing, and we've got an explanation. Modern companies rely on abstraction as much as they can. If you build a service oriented architecture for your company, you decouple the explicitly evil part of what you do that requires a uniquely sociopathic personality from the more banal customer service oriented part that can be fulfilled by commodity labor.

andrewflnr 14y ago
An exquisite application of Hanlon's razor.
- reedlaw 14y ago
  That it is, but I find it hard to imagine people doing this day after day without any inkling that what they're doing is somehow wrong.

mike_ivanov 14y ago

What exactly would make you feel bad about doing it? It's a very interesting thing to think about btw.

fghh45sdfhr3 14y ago

Why wouldn't people feel bad about scamming someone like this? I envy your innocence. Let my try to explain this with evolutionary algorithms. People have been running simulations of social life for many years. That's how we know that social contract "cheaters" naturally evolve. The same type of simulations have shown how "punishers" also evolve. And how complex group dynamics become long terms stable with all of these roles and then some. Is there something in a culture (besides wealth discrepancy per se) that makes this sort of thing more OK? No, this is universally true of humanity.

felipemnoa 14y ago
>>Let my try to explain this with evolutionary algorithms Is it me or did you not actually explain anything. It sounds very interesting but you just gave an introduction.
- fghh45sdfhr3 14y ago
  You are correct. I kind of ran out of steam there. Here is a bit more: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07418820000094781 http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07418820000094781

jusben1369 14y ago

Well there's an awful lot of "demand" that's manufactured in commerce. I suspect, but have no idea, that the pitch goes something like "Nearly every window machine has performance issues that we can improve. Our methods for getting people to help us clean up their registries etc are a little unorthodox but in the end our customers have faster machines and are happy with the service" or some variation. And you're not asking too many questions if you get the chance to make 2x your other job options and talk to Westerners all day.

rburhum 14y ago

Sadly, you can create a structure to rationalize any behavior that is destructive to other human beings as "good". Operating/creating a machine that causes death is quite often reframed as "defend" or "save lives" in certain situations that stretches this definition. This happens is a "large scale" everywhere. I think implying that it is something inherent to the place (or the culture) where the scam is taking place is utterly wrong. The reason in this case for the scam to come from India is not cultural - it is simply a case of economics.

nl 14y ago

I played the who dumb user thing for a while with one scammer until I got bored. Then I went for the guilt trip: "how do you feel trying to destroy people who don't know how to protect themselves", etc etc. The guy did the whole "I don't know what you mean blah blah blah" for a while, and then said he'd get his boss. I heard him talking to the boss for around 30 seconds, and then the phone hung up. I came out of it convinced (in this case at least) that the person on the phone really had no idea they were running a scam - they were just given a list of numbers to call and a script to run.

enneff 14y ago

Many Indian call center employees have been abused very badly by foreigners, so I am not surprised these scammers can find people to work for them.