4 ms·

Good article though rather than philosphizing about lost souls, we probably should go back to the future. Pen-and-paper exams only. No take-home essays or assi

Good article though rather than philosphizing about lost souls, we probably should go back to the future. Pen-and-paper exams only. No take-home essays or assignments. Assessments done in person under supervision. No devices in class. Heavily reduced remote learning or online coursework. Coursework redesigned so that any out-of-class work is explicitly AI-collaborative. Frequent low-stakes in-class writing to verify student voice and baseline ability. And when resources permit have oral exams and presentations as a means of assessment. We did this for decades when tuition was a fraction of today's cost. Any argument that we can't return to basics is bollocks. If you're trying to hawk education for $$$$$$, probably need to offer some actual human instruction, not Zoom and Discord sessions that anyone could run from their bedroom. If they can't, then the rot and capture really is as bad as this makes out, and to update Will Hunting: the kids might as well save $150k and get their learning for $20/month on ChatGPT.

Pet_Ant 11mo ago
My parents had oral exams in university. I feel like that actually is a better format that does not rewarding cramming, but is interactive and over quicker. It means that there is a dynamic that actually allows for grading problem solving over regurgitation.
- ravenstine 11mo ago
  I agree, though I shudder to imagine how cringey the switchover would be. A significant number of students already had poor diction and linguistic skills when I was in college, and recent evidence shows this situation has likely become worse.
- Der_Einzige 11mo ago
  Anyone with oral exams was privileged.
  - Pet_Ant 11mo ago
    > Anyone with oral exams was privileged. No, they really weren't. These were state school's in 1970's eastern Europe. No tuition, and neither parent was from a privileged background.
  - defrost 11mo ago
    Privileged enough to have a place at a university, sure. That didn't universally equate to privilege in a class or wealth sense for a number of countries. eg: https://www.whitlam.org/whitlam-legacy-education https://www.whitlam.org/whitlam-legacy-education was the system I was educated under, when I took orals it was a result of being a scruffy kid that wore no shoes but passed general high school and math talent exams better than all but three others my age in the state. ( For interest, the three that ramked higher than myself that year in Tertiary admissions exams were all educated in expensive private schools in the capital city- I got by on School of the Air, a bunch of books and a few years at a smallish remote high school in far north W.Australia * https://www.aades.edu.au/members/wa https://www.aades.edu.au/members/wa 1970's ham radio running off truck batteries - pre internet for that area, although we did experiment with text over phone line and packet radio. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prestel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prestel )
- RAIN92 11mo ago
  It's ironic. In Italy we always had constant oral exams (and still do!) from elementary school all the way to Uni. At least 2 per week in high school. In an effort to standardize European systems many courses are trying to get rid of them because foreign students are particularly weak in an oral defense. Turns out we were right for once :D
euroderf 11mo ago
In 7th grade history, once a week the class started with a brief (written) quiz. Is something like that so hard to do ?
vondur 11mo ago
This is the correct answer. I work at a CSU (non-faculty) and the issue here is many of the faculty like using online and automated systems to dish out the work and the grading. Going back to doing it the old fashioned way will provoke a pushback from the faculty who will complain about workloads etc...
binary132 11mo ago
it's almost as though what we need is to entirely ditch the university scam and create something new that more closely resembles what its real purpose was always supposed to be.
- defrost 11mo ago
  > what its real purpose was always supposed to be. Catholic education and theology college? * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Paris#Origins https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Paris#Origins * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Oxford#Founding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Oxford#Founding
  - binary132 11mo ago
    sounds good to me. :)
    - defrost 11mo ago
      They have their issues ... Bindoon: * https://kelsolawyers.com/au/paedophile_offenders/brother-keaney-bindoon/ https://kelsolawyers.com/au/paedophile_offenders/brother-kea... Castledare: * https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-39131761 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-39131761 Clontarf: * https://www.findandconnect.gov.au/entity/clontarf/ https://www.findandconnect.gov.au/entity/clontarf/ St Augustine’s / Marcellin College : * https://kelsolawyers.com/au/paedophile_offenders/father-terry-pidoto/ https://kelsolawyers.com/au/paedophile_offenders/father-terr... Not just Catholic schools, of course - but they certainly swept the boards and came first by a good margin: https://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/case-studies https://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/case-studies They were very good at keeping it under wraps for decades though.

Pet_Ant 11mo ago

My parents had oral exams in university. I feel like that actually is a better format that does not rewarding cramming, but is interactive and over quicker. It means that there is a dynamic that actually allows for grading problem solving over regurgitation.

ravenstine 11mo ago
I agree, though I shudder to imagine how cringey the switchover would be. A significant number of students already had poor diction and linguistic skills when I was in college, and recent evidence shows this situation has likely become worse.
Der_Einzige 11mo ago
Anyone with oral exams was privileged.
- Pet_Ant 11mo ago
  > Anyone with oral exams was privileged. No, they really weren't. These were state school's in 1970's eastern Europe. No tuition, and neither parent was from a privileged background.
- defrost 11mo ago
  Privileged enough to have a place at a university, sure. That didn't universally equate to privilege in a class or wealth sense for a number of countries. eg: https://www.whitlam.org/whitlam-legacy-education https://www.whitlam.org/whitlam-legacy-education was the system I was educated under, when I took orals it was a result of being a scruffy kid that wore no shoes but passed general high school and math talent exams better than all but three others my age in the state. ( For interest, the three that ramked higher than myself that year in Tertiary admissions exams were all educated in expensive private schools in the capital city- I got by on School of the Air, a bunch of books and a few years at a smallish remote high school in far north W.Australia * https://www.aades.edu.au/members/wa https://www.aades.edu.au/members/wa 1970's ham radio running off truck batteries - pre internet for that area, although we did experiment with text over phone line and packet radio. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prestel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prestel )
RAIN92 11mo ago
It's ironic. In Italy we always had constant oral exams (and still do!) from elementary school all the way to Uni. At least 2 per week in high school. In an effort to standardize European systems many courses are trying to get rid of them because foreign students are particularly weak in an oral defense. Turns out we were right for once :D

euroderf 11mo ago

In 7th grade history, once a week the class started with a brief (written) quiz. Is something like that so hard to do ?

vondur 11mo ago

This is the correct answer. I work at a CSU (non-faculty) and the issue here is many of the faculty like using online and automated systems to dish out the work and the grading. Going back to doing it the old fashioned way will provoke a pushback from the faculty who will complain about workloads etc...

binary132 11mo ago

it's almost as though what we need is to entirely ditch the university scam and create something new that more closely resembles what its real purpose was always supposed to be.

defrost 11mo ago
> what its real purpose was always supposed to be. Catholic education and theology college? * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Paris#Origins https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Paris#Origins * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Oxford#Founding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Oxford#Founding
- binary132 11mo ago
  sounds good to me. :)
  - defrost 11mo ago
    They have their issues ... Bindoon: * https://kelsolawyers.com/au/paedophile_offenders/brother-keaney-bindoon/ https://kelsolawyers.com/au/paedophile_offenders/brother-kea... Castledare: * https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-39131761 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-39131761 Clontarf: * https://www.findandconnect.gov.au/entity/clontarf/ https://www.findandconnect.gov.au/entity/clontarf/ St Augustine’s / Marcellin College : * https://kelsolawyers.com/au/paedophile_offenders/father-terry-pidoto/ https://kelsolawyers.com/au/paedophile_offenders/father-terr... Not just Catholic schools, of course - but they certainly swept the boards and came first by a good margin: https://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/case-studies https://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/case-studies They were very good at keeping it under wraps for decades though.