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Cool. After using Nix for a while I got pretty fed up with the (subjective) unintuitiveness of the language†. It wasn't even that I thought it was a bad langua

by Y_Y 11mo ago

Cool. After using Nix for a while I got pretty fed up with the (subjective) unintuitiveness of the language†. It wasn't even that I thought it was a bad language, I just couldn't het it to click (and doubly so after the advent of flakes). All the same it seems to me like if you grok it it's a great fit for constructing recipes for building things reliably that are part of huge dependency trees, and so it's natural that it would be a good website generator too. † Luckily others shared this issue, and the result was Guix which solves that problem while introducing its own.

lillecarl 11mo ago
It's a pretty special language, lazy evaluation and very basic types. However after spending the time to learn it to an intermediate level I think it's pretty great. Flakes are not great however, they're what happens when you "overdo it", sadly the momentum is behind flakes because some UX/DX improvements came along with them (lockfile in repo). I think the stdenv being built on bash is worse than Nix language. Module system errors can be very hard to troubleshoot because of lazy eval, sadly I can't see a reasonable solution without worse tradeoffs :(
- Hnus 11mo ago
  The flakes were the main UX/DX improvement for me. Before them I honestly could not do anything. The learning curve was so incredibly steep it almost felt like the people behind Nix were being malicious or intentionally gatekeeping. You finally stumble onto something you can at least partly understand, but then the powers that be throw two last obstacles at you like, First, flakes are "experimental", so you have to enable them. Back then there were like three slightly different CLI commands to do it, and it felt like none worked from like 5 tutorial tabs I had open, putting it `experimental-features =` into flake you are trying to switch to does not work obviously. Then you hit the classic situation where your flake is not committed or staged, so Nix refuses to see it. And instead of telling you that, it prints this abomination of error message "error: path '/nix/store/0ccnxa25whszw7mgbgyzdm4nqc0zwnm8-source/flake.nix' does not exist" (https://determinate.systems/blog/changelog-determinate-nix-331/#untracked-files https://determinate.systems/blog/changelog-determinate-nix-3...) I would not wish learning Nix from zero on my worst enemy, and I say that as someone who uses nix-darwin, devShells, deploy-rs and so on every day. The UX/DX is really bad, but nothing else comes close to its capabilities. Sorry for rant but without flakes I would not make it.
  - entropie 11mo ago
    > your flake is not committed or staged That has nothing to do with flakes. When I add a "module" to my repos its the same. I have to add it the git repos or nix does not "see" it. And yes, its pretty unintuitive.
    - Hnus 11mo ago
      It actually is specific to flakes. Classic nix commands can see untracked files just fine. Flake evaluation behaves differently because of how it decides which "scheme" to use: > If the directory is part of a Git repository, then the input will be treated as a `git+file:` URL, otherwise it will be treated as a `path:` url; This is why untracked or unstaged files disappear when using flakes: https://github.com/NixOS/nix/blob/ec6789f9dafce41011418fe6fcc5215e4b50e1e5/src/nix/flake.md?plain=1#L115 https://github.com/NixOS/nix/blob/ec6789f9dafce41011418fe6fc...
      - entropie 11mo ago
        Interesting.
        embedding-shape 11mo ago
        What's more interesting, is how confident your original comment read, but turned out to not be correct at all. Of course it has always been true, but excellent reminder that even humans hallucinate.
        entropie 11mo ago
        I tried to edit my comment but not possible. I could have sworn that I had this issue without using flakes. The start with Nixos was really bumpy; I must have mixed something up.
  - Tt6000 11mo ago
    [dead]
- nothrabannosir 11mo ago
  I’m convinced when people say they “love flakes” , 95% of them just love fetchTree and lock files. (Which is totally valid btw)
  - Hnus 11mo ago
    Fair, another thing I really like is you can do `nix flake show templates` and try to `nix flake init -t templates#trivial` and be like ahh so thats how its supposed to be done or init `full` and be like ok this flake thing can do a lot of things I didn't know it could do, you can then edit, delete and experiment.

by Y_Y 11mo ago

lillecarl 11mo ago

It's a pretty special language, lazy evaluation and very basic types. However after spending the time to learn it to an intermediate level I think it's pretty great. Flakes are not great however, they're what happens when you "overdo it", sadly the momentum is behind flakes because some UX/DX improvements came along with them (lockfile in repo). I think the stdenv being built on bash is worse than Nix language. Module system errors can be very hard to troubleshoot because of lazy eval, sadly I can't see a reasonable solution without worse tradeoffs :(

Hnus 11mo ago
The flakes were the main UX/DX improvement for me. Before them I honestly could not do anything. The learning curve was so incredibly steep it almost felt like the people behind Nix were being malicious or intentionally gatekeeping. You finally stumble onto something you can at least partly understand, but then the powers that be throw two last obstacles at you like, First, flakes are "experimental", so you have to enable them. Back then there were like three slightly different CLI commands to do it, and it felt like none worked from like 5 tutorial tabs I had open, putting it `experimental-features =` into flake you are trying to switch to does not work obviously. Then you hit the classic situation where your flake is not committed or staged, so Nix refuses to see it. And instead of telling you that, it prints this abomination of error message "error: path '/nix/store/0ccnxa25whszw7mgbgyzdm4nqc0zwnm8-source/flake.nix' does not exist" (https://determinate.systems/blog/changelog-determinate-nix-331/#untracked-files https://determinate.systems/blog/changelog-determinate-nix-3...) I would not wish learning Nix from zero on my worst enemy, and I say that as someone who uses nix-darwin, devShells, deploy-rs and so on every day. The UX/DX is really bad, but nothing else comes close to its capabilities. Sorry for rant but without flakes I would not make it.
- entropie 11mo ago
  > your flake is not committed or staged That has nothing to do with flakes. When I add a "module" to my repos its the same. I have to add it the git repos or nix does not "see" it. And yes, its pretty unintuitive.
  - Hnus 11mo ago
    It actually is specific to flakes. Classic nix commands can see untracked files just fine. Flake evaluation behaves differently because of how it decides which "scheme" to use: > If the directory is part of a Git repository, then the input will be treated as a `git+file:` URL, otherwise it will be treated as a `path:` url; This is why untracked or unstaged files disappear when using flakes: https://github.com/NixOS/nix/blob/ec6789f9dafce41011418fe6fcc5215e4b50e1e5/src/nix/flake.md?plain=1#L115 https://github.com/NixOS/nix/blob/ec6789f9dafce41011418fe6fc...
    - entropie 11mo ago
      Interesting.
      - embedding-shape 11mo ago
        What's more interesting, is how confident your original comment read, but turned out to not be correct at all. Of course it has always been true, but excellent reminder that even humans hallucinate.
        entropie 11mo ago
        I tried to edit my comment but not possible. I could have sworn that I had this issue without using flakes. The start with Nixos was really bumpy; I must have mixed something up.
- Tt6000 11mo ago
  [dead]
nothrabannosir 11mo ago
I’m convinced when people say they “love flakes” , 95% of them just love fetchTree and lock files. (Which is totally valid btw)
- Hnus 11mo ago
  Fair, another thing I really like is you can do `nix flake show templates` and try to `nix flake init -t templates#trivial` and be like ahh so thats how its supposed to be done or init `full` and be like ok this flake thing can do a lot of things I didn't know it could do, you can then edit, delete and experiment.