5 ms·

I was with you until your 3rd paragraph. Why are you carrying water for climate change accelerationists and racists? The examples don't even make sense histori

by mcdonje 10mo ago

I was with you until your 3rd paragraph. Why are you carrying water for climate change accelerationists and racists? The examples don't even make sense historically. Haven't you noticed that most governments are failing to decarbonize, and government force against citizens is usually against the left?

Y_Y 10mo ago
You don't have to be a racist to be accused of racism.
- sofixa 10mo ago
  "said something racist" is what OP said
  - Y_Y 10mo ago
    Indeed, but I inferred the meaning of "something racist [in the judgement of the authorities]".
    - pessimizer 10mo ago
      Racists deserve free speech, and our society is better for it. When racists are silenced, anti-racists become complacent, stupid, and ironically, racist because they lose the ability to recognize racism. Defend everyone's free speech. Don't require the necessity of unfair accusations. The destruction of people's lives over unfair accusations is simply a failure of due process and the desire of people to join a mob for safety. You should hate that no matter what you think about the right to free expression and belief. Anyone who would earnestly defend mob justice led by demagogues and supported by people afraid to be targeted next has a particular demagogue who they back.
      - mcdonje 10mo ago
        Wild how you're weaving a tale about mob justice when someone says something against racists. Also, it's logically incoherent how you're portraying mob justice as a bad thing while rejecting governmental regulation. The entire idea of the state having a monopoly on violence is to prevent mob justice, or individuals taking the law into their own hands. Basic civics. I'm generally in favor of free speech, but there are thorny issues associated with it that "free speech absolutists" aren't interrogating because they stop at "racists should be able to say what they want".
      - sofixa 10mo ago
        > Racists deserve free speech, and our society is better for it The individual victims of racist speech would strongly disagree with that.
        nephihaha 10mo ago
        There are a lot of definitions of what that entails. Some people have landed in hot water for making comments about what's happened in Gaza and accused of that.
      - dragonwriter 10mo ago
        > Racists deserve free speech, and our society is better for it. To the extent that our society is better for extending free speech to racists it has nothing to do with them deserving anything, but with the costs of empowering any fallible human institution to deny anyone things that that particular group of people do not deserve, and the cost of failing to make that distinction is being susceptible to being convinced that some other group truly does not deserve it and therefore some institution should be empowered to identify members of that group and deny it to them.
      - carlCarlCarlCar 10mo ago
        Free speech is a circular right. One is free to say racist things. Others are free to mock them in return. Racists are not free from consequences. If they don't like others freely expressing themselves in return, at the rhetorical and emotional expense of the racist, racists can freely express themselves in their home. You're advocating a very reductive approach to free speech.
pessimizer 10mo ago
Because in a free country you have the right to be a climate skeptic and a racist? Being a racist is mostly useless and self-serving, but if you make any particular scientific position illegal, it's identical to having state defined science. That's how we got people passing bills to define pi and Lysenkoism. It's how we institutionalized chattel slavery and sometimes teaching black people to read punishable by death. The goal of government isn't to promote your "correct" opinions. The goal of government should be summarize the beliefs of a fully-informed public in order to act on their behalf.
- mcdonje 10mo ago
  You're kinda missing the point. It's quite common for "free speech absolutists" to defend racism and other forms of bigotry, but not much else.
  - mikkupikku 10mo ago
    It is the most unpopular speech which is at the greatest risk of being censored, and so there is it also the best place to hold the line on free speech. If you don't defend the right to say racist things, then you've already conceded the fight for free speech and are now just negotiating your surrender.
    - mcdonje 10mo ago
      Again, missing my point. I'm generally in favor of free speech, so your argument is not new to me. It's also not relevant to what I said, since you missed the point. Also, you think racism is unpopular?
      - mikkupikku 10mo ago
        Racism will get you fired from virtually any company in America, thrown out of virtually any business or school, etc. If you don't think it's deeply unpopular then I don't know what to tell you. It is the speech which is closest to being outright banned everywhere. It already is in most developed countries, probably most of the developing ones too (at least on paper), America stands out as one place it remains technically legal even though it will get you blacklisted from almost everywhere. The only reason it's still legal here is because the first ammendment is unusually strong. Chip away at it, and I guarantee you'll lose more than you're bargaining for.

by mcdonje 10mo ago

Y_Y 10mo ago

You don't have to be a racist to be accused of racism.

sofixa 10mo ago
"said something racist" is what OP said
- Y_Y 10mo ago
  Indeed, but I inferred the meaning of "something racist [in the judgement of the authorities]".
  - pessimizer 10mo ago
    Racists deserve free speech, and our society is better for it. When racists are silenced, anti-racists become complacent, stupid, and ironically, racist because they lose the ability to recognize racism. Defend everyone's free speech. Don't require the necessity of unfair accusations. The destruction of people's lives over unfair accusations is simply a failure of due process and the desire of people to join a mob for safety. You should hate that no matter what you think about the right to free expression and belief. Anyone who would earnestly defend mob justice led by demagogues and supported by people afraid to be targeted next has a particular demagogue who they back.
    - mcdonje 10mo ago
      Wild how you're weaving a tale about mob justice when someone says something against racists. Also, it's logically incoherent how you're portraying mob justice as a bad thing while rejecting governmental regulation. The entire idea of the state having a monopoly on violence is to prevent mob justice, or individuals taking the law into their own hands. Basic civics. I'm generally in favor of free speech, but there are thorny issues associated with it that "free speech absolutists" aren't interrogating because they stop at "racists should be able to say what they want".
    - sofixa 10mo ago
      > Racists deserve free speech, and our society is better for it The individual victims of racist speech would strongly disagree with that.
      - nephihaha 10mo ago
        There are a lot of definitions of what that entails. Some people have landed in hot water for making comments about what's happened in Gaza and accused of that.
    - dragonwriter 10mo ago
      > Racists deserve free speech, and our society is better for it. To the extent that our society is better for extending free speech to racists it has nothing to do with them deserving anything, but with the costs of empowering any fallible human institution to deny anyone things that that particular group of people do not deserve, and the cost of failing to make that distinction is being susceptible to being convinced that some other group truly does not deserve it and therefore some institution should be empowered to identify members of that group and deny it to them.
    - carlCarlCarlCar 10mo ago
      Free speech is a circular right. One is free to say racist things. Others are free to mock them in return. Racists are not free from consequences. If they don't like others freely expressing themselves in return, at the rhetorical and emotional expense of the racist, racists can freely express themselves in their home. You're advocating a very reductive approach to free speech.

pessimizer 10mo ago

Because in a free country you have the right to be a climate skeptic and a racist? Being a racist is mostly useless and self-serving, but if you make any particular scientific position illegal, it's identical to having state defined science. That's how we got people passing bills to define pi and Lysenkoism. It's how we institutionalized chattel slavery and sometimes teaching black people to read punishable by death. The goal of government isn't to promote your "correct" opinions. The goal of government should be summarize the beliefs of a fully-informed public in order to act on their behalf.

mcdonje 10mo ago
You're kinda missing the point. It's quite common for "free speech absolutists" to defend racism and other forms of bigotry, but not much else.
- mikkupikku 10mo ago
  It is the most unpopular speech which is at the greatest risk of being censored, and so there is it also the best place to hold the line on free speech. If you don't defend the right to say racist things, then you've already conceded the fight for free speech and are now just negotiating your surrender.
  - mcdonje 10mo ago
    Again, missing my point. I'm generally in favor of free speech, so your argument is not new to me. It's also not relevant to what I said, since you missed the point. Also, you think racism is unpopular?
    - mikkupikku 10mo ago
      Racism will get you fired from virtually any company in America, thrown out of virtually any business or school, etc. If you don't think it's deeply unpopular then I don't know what to tell you. It is the speech which is closest to being outright banned everywhere. It already is in most developed countries, probably most of the developing ones too (at least on paper), America stands out as one place it remains technically legal even though it will get you blacklisted from almost everywhere. The only reason it's still legal here is because the first ammendment is unusually strong. Chip away at it, and I guarantee you'll lose more than you're bargaining for.