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I see people argue “But other people hate their jobs in other industries, just push through and grind, money is money” Sure, but I want to point out that softw

I see people argue “But other people hate their jobs in other industries, just push through and grind, money is money” Sure, but I want to point out that software development is kind of unique. I can’t think of too many other professional jobs where the line between hobby and work blends, for so many of its workers. Let us be honest with ourselves, many of the toxic things in this industry are caused by a strong culture and “It’s my hobby, and I’m extremely passionate about it” mentality. So people are willing to learn new skills in their spare time, unpaid of course. They’re willing to pull OT and weekend work, for the mission. And those that don’t, are deemed lazy or fakes, not passionate enough. You don’t see investment bankers / lawyers / management consultants / etc. go on about side projects, leveling up their skills during the weekend, and other things that are considered completely normal in this industry. My point is - those are the types of people you’re up against. Those are the type of people many employers love. If you have zero interest for the craft, and just plan on grinding for the money, there are other similarly lucrative ventures, which might align with your own interests, and where it is accepted to be in it for the money.

deleted 10mo ago
[deleted]
ecshafer 10mo ago
Programming is pretty lucky that there is also large demand for programmers, and the product is high grossing, because the salaries are good. Most other fields with a passion component are low paying. Almost all of the arts Film, Music, Writing, Art pay very low if you are not the absolute top of the field. Millions of people are out there writing short stories, drawing manga, shooting student films, etc for free to land jobs for salaries that the average CS grad would laugh at.
- OkayPhysicist 10mo ago
  We're in that position because the work is both hard and appears hard. The kneejerk response most people have to a wall of source code is to run in terror. We know that "being able to read the moon runes" is not the valuable part of our profession, but it has served as a convenient first line of defense. People are more willing to pay ridiculous sums of money to people doing things "I could never", as opposed to "I could, if I wanted to". Art mostly is in the "is hard, looks easy" category. Just look at the average person's response to Barnett Newman's paintings, for example. IMO, this is the most imminent risk with vibecoding. Not that it'll reduce the demand for software developers, but that it'll damage the perceived difficulty of our work.
  - silisili 10mo ago
    I agree with the last part, but in many ways that had already been done or at least accelerated in the era of bootcamps. I had the displeasure of working with more than a few folks who got into it for the money and claimed it was easy, who thought it was a job of mainly Googling and copy pasting. The sad thing is that these people often survive fine in a big enough org. Yeah, maybe I'm gatekeeping a bit, but it felt like it really cheapened the image of the job. But you're right, vibecoding is likely going to accelerate such diminishing further.
  - deleted 10mo ago
    [deleted]
bluedino 10mo ago
> I can’t think of too many other professional jobs where the line between hobby and work blends, for so many of its workers. I would argue that the majority of rank and file programmers are not coding outside of work.
- RankingMember 10mo ago
  Anecdotally, this is my perception as well- I'd say maybe 5% of the people I've worked with are the "finish software dev workday, then go home and jump right back on the computer" type. Personally, when I'm done my workday, the last thing I want to do is sit back down at a computer (with rare exceptions for inspiration spikes).
JambalayaJimbo 10mo ago
>You don’t see investment bankers / lawyers / management consultants / etc. go on about side projects, leveling up their skills during the weekend, and other things that are considered completely normal in this industry. It is absolutely the case in industries like law and consulting that you are expected to put in time after hours to network with clients/partners, and get certifications.
jhbadger 10mo ago
Pro bono cases are basically "hobbyist" projects for lawyers - they get to practice their skills, and maybe do some good, but they don't get paid for them.
dylan604 10mo ago
I have so many disagreements with this post. I know plenty of people in the food industry that are constantly trying new things at home and while staying late/early at work. I even know bartenders that are playing around with things at home. How many grease monkeys work at a shop on other people's cars yet go home and continue to turn a wrench on their own project car? My grandfather was a custom cabinet maker, and was always trying new things as a hobby project to be able to offer something different to his clients that other builders did not offer. There a plenty of people in non-software professions that like to push themselves outside of work. Just because you don't know any does not mean they do not exist. Every industry has a group of employees that are essentially just there for a paycheck. This is not a unique thing to the software industry. The flip side of your deeming people lazy/not passionate for not wanting to work for free is that perspective is just off. Just because someone has other commitments does not mean they are lazy. Having a family tends to cut into free time during nights and weekends. Being lazy would mean doing nothing during that time, and I can assure you people busy with family would also love to have time for doing nothing. This just boils down to people really not understanding personal/work life balance. It just so happens that young people that seem "hungry and passionate" because they spend so much time at work are also people that tend to not have family which affords them a lot of this "passion time" for growing. It's a very simple and normal situation in people's growth. Not being able to recognize that for what it is to me is the thing that should be really questioned.
- closeparen 10mo ago
  There's a saying in live audio: I mix for free. I get paid to haul equipment. I code for free. I get paid to deal with JIRA, Zoom meetings, and the Bay Area.
- ozim 10mo ago
  There is also a huge difference between “hey I am leaving at 5 because I have life outside of the job” and “hey I just collect paychecks here”.
  - dylan604 10mo ago
    A long time ago, I had a co-worker that would stand next to the time clock with card in hand ready to "get those goose eggs" by swiping out exactly at 5:00. In the morning, he'd stand there waiting to swipe in at 8:29 until it said 8:30. In his words, "I give them what they give me, 40 hours".
BeetleB 10mo ago
> You don’t see investment bankers / lawyers / management consultants / etc. go on about side projects, leveling up their skills during the weekend, and other things that are considered completely normal in this industry. Maybe not side projects, but their work schedules can be insane when compared to the typical SW engineer.
- jononor 10mo ago
  High performing types in those areas network a lot, and just as much off the clock (or more) as on. From those I know, many of them seem to pick hobbies, friends, holidays, activities, gym, etc that is compatible with connecting with the right people. And that is considered very normal, more ore less expected if aiming for partner type roles.
deleted 10mo ago
[deleted]
ThrowawayR2 10mo ago
> "You don’t see investment bankers / lawyers / management consultants / etc. go on about side projects, leveling up their skills during the weekend, and other things that are considered completely normal in this industry." Lawyers pay up front with an extra three years of law school and a bar exam that only 79% pass on the first try according to https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/first-time-bar-exam-pass-rate-ticked-up-2023-while-racial-gaps-persist-2024-03-11 https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/first-time-bar-exam... .
never_inline 10mo ago
Thanks for convincing me to give up on my side project.
aleph_minus_one 10mo ago
> You don’t see investment bankers / lawyers / management consultants / etc. go on about side projects, leveling up their skills during the weekend, and other things that are considered completely normal in this industry. I am very certain that you are at least wrong about management consultants. I know quite some who work on side projects (even though they barely have any time) and/or level up their skills during the few free hours on the weekend.
reeeli 10mo ago
it's the same in any industry with the exception of insurance and bureaucracy, I think (IMO and from the top of my head) but I believe no other industry has a greater gap between "i can't believe the shit I (have to) do at work" and "hobby" except in the many cases of voyeurs, stalkers, laissez-faire criminal investigators and passionate MiniTrue partisans, all of which are variations of the "true" human nature of the bulk of the population left after the many wars, including a great many of the ones who came home unharmed but with stories to tell

deleted 10mo ago

[deleted]

ecshafer 10mo ago

Programming is pretty lucky that there is also large demand for programmers, and the product is high grossing, because the salaries are good. Most other fields with a passion component are low paying. Almost all of the arts Film, Music, Writing, Art pay very low if you are not the absolute top of the field. Millions of people are out there writing short stories, drawing manga, shooting student films, etc for free to land jobs for salaries that the average CS grad would laugh at.

OkayPhysicist 10mo ago
We're in that position because the work is both hard and appears hard. The kneejerk response most people have to a wall of source code is to run in terror. We know that "being able to read the moon runes" is not the valuable part of our profession, but it has served as a convenient first line of defense. People are more willing to pay ridiculous sums of money to people doing things "I could never", as opposed to "I could, if I wanted to". Art mostly is in the "is hard, looks easy" category. Just look at the average person's response to Barnett Newman's paintings, for example. IMO, this is the most imminent risk with vibecoding. Not that it'll reduce the demand for software developers, but that it'll damage the perceived difficulty of our work.
- silisili 10mo ago
  I agree with the last part, but in many ways that had already been done or at least accelerated in the era of bootcamps. I had the displeasure of working with more than a few folks who got into it for the money and claimed it was easy, who thought it was a job of mainly Googling and copy pasting. The sad thing is that these people often survive fine in a big enough org. Yeah, maybe I'm gatekeeping a bit, but it felt like it really cheapened the image of the job. But you're right, vibecoding is likely going to accelerate such diminishing further.
- deleted 10mo ago
  [deleted]

bluedino 10mo ago

> I can’t think of too many other professional jobs where the line between hobby and work blends, for so many of its workers. I would argue that the majority of rank and file programmers are not coding outside of work.

RankingMember 10mo ago
Anecdotally, this is my perception as well- I'd say maybe 5% of the people I've worked with are the "finish software dev workday, then go home and jump right back on the computer" type. Personally, when I'm done my workday, the last thing I want to do is sit back down at a computer (with rare exceptions for inspiration spikes).

JambalayaJimbo 10mo ago

>You don’t see investment bankers / lawyers / management consultants / etc. go on about side projects, leveling up their skills during the weekend, and other things that are considered completely normal in this industry. It is absolutely the case in industries like law and consulting that you are expected to put in time after hours to network with clients/partners, and get certifications.

jhbadger 10mo ago

Pro bono cases are basically "hobbyist" projects for lawyers - they get to practice their skills, and maybe do some good, but they don't get paid for them.

dylan604 10mo ago

I have so many disagreements with this post. I know plenty of people in the food industry that are constantly trying new things at home and while staying late/early at work. I even know bartenders that are playing around with things at home. How many grease monkeys work at a shop on other people's cars yet go home and continue to turn a wrench on their own project car? My grandfather was a custom cabinet maker, and was always trying new things as a hobby project to be able to offer something different to his clients that other builders did not offer. There a plenty of people in non-software professions that like to push themselves outside of work. Just because you don't know any does not mean they do not exist. Every industry has a group of employees that are essentially just there for a paycheck. This is not a unique thing to the software industry. The flip side of your deeming people lazy/not passionate for not wanting to work for free is that perspective is just off. Just because someone has other commitments does not mean they are lazy. Having a family tends to cut into free time during nights and weekends. Being lazy would mean doing nothing during that time, and I can assure you people busy with family would also love to have time for doing nothing. This just boils down to people really not understanding personal/work life balance. It just so happens that young people that seem "hungry and passionate" because they spend so much time at work are also people that tend to not have family which affords them a lot of this "passion time" for growing. It's a very simple and normal situation in people's growth. Not being able to recognize that for what it is to me is the thing that should be really questioned.

closeparen 10mo ago
There's a saying in live audio: I mix for free. I get paid to haul equipment. I code for free. I get paid to deal with JIRA, Zoom meetings, and the Bay Area.
ozim 10mo ago
There is also a huge difference between “hey I am leaving at 5 because I have life outside of the job” and “hey I just collect paychecks here”.
- dylan604 10mo ago
  A long time ago, I had a co-worker that would stand next to the time clock with card in hand ready to "get those goose eggs" by swiping out exactly at 5:00. In the morning, he'd stand there waiting to swipe in at 8:29 until it said 8:30. In his words, "I give them what they give me, 40 hours".

BeetleB 10mo ago

> You don’t see investment bankers / lawyers / management consultants / etc. go on about side projects, leveling up their skills during the weekend, and other things that are considered completely normal in this industry. Maybe not side projects, but their work schedules can be insane when compared to the typical SW engineer.

jononor 10mo ago
High performing types in those areas network a lot, and just as much off the clock (or more) as on. From those I know, many of them seem to pick hobbies, friends, holidays, activities, gym, etc that is compatible with connecting with the right people. And that is considered very normal, more ore less expected if aiming for partner type roles.

deleted 10mo ago

[deleted]

ThrowawayR2 10mo ago

> "You don’t see investment bankers / lawyers / management consultants / etc. go on about side projects, leveling up their skills during the weekend, and other things that are considered completely normal in this industry." Lawyers pay up front with an extra three years of law school and a bar exam that only 79% pass on the first try according to https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/first-time-bar-exam-pass-rate-ticked-up-2023-while-racial-gaps-persist-2024-03-11 https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/first-time-bar-exam... .

never_inline 10mo ago

Thanks for convincing me to give up on my side project.

aleph_minus_one 10mo ago

> You don’t see investment bankers / lawyers / management consultants / etc. go on about side projects, leveling up their skills during the weekend, and other things that are considered completely normal in this industry. I am very certain that you are at least wrong about management consultants. I know quite some who work on side projects (even though they barely have any time) and/or level up their skills during the few free hours on the weekend.

reeeli 10mo ago

it's the same in any industry with the exception of insurance and bureaucracy, I think (IMO and from the top of my head) but I believe no other industry has a greater gap between "i can't believe the shit I (have to) do at work" and "hobby" except in the many cases of voyeurs, stalkers, laissez-faire criminal investigators and passionate MiniTrue partisans, all of which are variations of the "true" human nature of the bulk of the population left after the many wars, including a great many of the ones who came home unharmed but with stories to tell