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There's also a huge difference between liking to program and liking to work as a programmer. I despise the latter as business programming takes the joy out of e

by zwnow 11mo ago

There's also a huge difference between liking to program and liking to work as a programmer. I despise the latter as business programming takes the joy out of everything. Trying to educate management about the current boundaries of the product or having to work extra hard because a product manager promised features that dont yet exist is exhausting. Not being allowed to work on fixing tech debt while having to build on top of it is pain. Doesn't help being a solo dev in a start up either so maybe that's the issue.

badmonster 11mo ago
Have you found any strategies that help maintain joy while dealing with business constraints? What boundaries work best?
- f1shy 11mo ago
  As long as: (1) The technical staff understand the business constraints AND (2) management understands the technical constraints AND (3) both constraints "match" you are in heaven. I've seen that. Is possible. Is nice. More often than not, one of the 3 conditions is not met. In case of 1 and 2, if they are good professionals, talk can (and typically will) help. In case of 3, you business case sucks, that is a big problem, change company. Run.
- zwnow 11mo ago
  I am the worst example to ask this. I regularly go rogue or work on private shit during work. As long as there isn't any pressing work to do I force the balance I need. Perks of working alone I guess.
falcor84 11mo ago
There's a lot you can legitimately blame PMs for, but promising features that don't yet exist is essentially their job definition. A good PM will allow for uncertainty and flexibility, but at the end of the day, to have some sort of product roadmap, even in the most agile of environments, they have to say things like "at that stage we'll have functionality x, so our product will enable users to y, so that we'll better compete across z"
- stuffn 11mo ago
  PMs are an invention of PHBs that sat in too many introductions to agile from management consulting firms. Actual agile gets rid of them along with all the other cruft. PM as a title is fundamentally a jobs program for people who couldn’t hack it as programmers, or are nepo hires. You could argue a North Star like a product manager performs useful business alignment. But in 12 years across several companies I haven’t met a single project manager that is more than a professional problem manufacturer with selective hearing that miraculously ignores expert engineering opinion.
- f1shy 11mo ago
  >> promising features that don't yet exist is essentially their job definition Agree. I think he meant (at least my reality) they promise features that does not exist (ok) AND are impossible to implement in the promised time (or at all).
  - gryfft 11mo ago
    I think there's also an element here of... when you work a long time on something, you tend to become emotionally attached to it, and you want it to be good and work well. Time to fix technical debt and work on making the product good is often implicitly waved as a carrot ahead of people who care about that sort of thing. "We can prioritize that after we ship $FEATURE." This then feels like a betrayal on an emotional level when instead of a nice block of time to fix technical debt, instead the priority becomes $NEXT_FEATURE (the "features that don't exist yet.") Management that can successfully keep the treadmill running ships features faster, so it keeps happening, and can contribute to burnout as (what felt like) implicit promises are repeatedly broken for the good of the business at the expense of the product.
    - HPsquared 11mo ago
      You can just remember that in many cases you're not replaceable, and can just insist to management. They love it really.
- zwnow 11mo ago
Schiphol 11mo ago
I think this is just the nature of paid work, though. Academics are generally in love with their topic, and very much not in love with the kind of admin busywork that they have to spend much of their working hours doing.
bryanlarsen 11mo ago
I know dance instructors, cabinet makers and surgeons who all love their work as a hobby but hate it as a job.
- markus_zhang 11mo ago
  I think it's just they do not have the financial freedom to say No to many of the tasks. Once I have the FU money I'd definitely quit. But what is a hobbyist surgeon?
  - GuinansEyebrows 11mo ago
    body modders? folks who like to hang from hooks? i wonder how many folks in those communities have advanced medical degrees.
  - dangets 11mo ago
    A taxidermist.
  - tuveson 11mo ago
    > But what is a hobbyist surgeon? Serial killer
- cess11 11mo ago
  On the face of it recreational surgery seems like a risky hobby.
  - bryanlarsen 11mo ago
    I meant it as a shorthand for the standard gripe of "love my job, hate the paper work.". Many surgeons will also admit that they hate clinic work too, it's so much nicer once the patient is sedated and they can drop their bedside manner. However there are jobs close to "recreational surgery". One is surgical assisting. The pay is poor compared to being the primary surgeon, but has none of the patient or bureaucratic responsibility. Retired surgeons often do this, and not because they need the money. Another is volunteering in the third world. Little bureaucracy and no long term patient contact.
shackleton1894 11mo ago
As a solo dev in a start up, man is this true. I have a lot of control over the product, but nobody else understands or cares how features are achieved. I feel your pain.
giancarlostoro 11mo ago
> current boundaries of the product I like pushing the boundaries and making seemingly hard visions come to life. Sadly, I'm often working on CRUD applications where most things are possible and boring. At home I work on obscure side projects to see what is possible with either existing open-source projects, or non-existing projects (things I want that I can't find).
- zwnow 11mo ago
  > I'm often working on CRUD applications where most things are possible and boring. Gotta disagree, a lot of things aren't possible as soon as you have a data scheme set which was running in prod for a while. Introduces a lot of complexity when data structures suddenly have to change.

by zwnow 11mo ago

badmonster 11mo ago

Have you found any strategies that help maintain joy while dealing with business constraints? What boundaries work best?

f1shy 11mo ago
As long as: (1) The technical staff understand the business constraints AND (2) management understands the technical constraints AND (3) both constraints "match" you are in heaven. I've seen that. Is possible. Is nice. More often than not, one of the 3 conditions is not met. In case of 1 and 2, if they are good professionals, talk can (and typically will) help. In case of 3, you business case sucks, that is a big problem, change company. Run.
zwnow 11mo ago
I am the worst example to ask this. I regularly go rogue or work on private shit during work. As long as there isn't any pressing work to do I force the balance I need. Perks of working alone I guess.

falcor84 11mo ago

There's a lot you can legitimately blame PMs for, but promising features that don't yet exist is essentially their job definition. A good PM will allow for uncertainty and flexibility, but at the end of the day, to have some sort of product roadmap, even in the most agile of environments, they have to say things like "at that stage we'll have functionality x, so our product will enable users to y, so that we'll better compete across z"

stuffn 11mo ago
PMs are an invention of PHBs that sat in too many introductions to agile from management consulting firms. Actual agile gets rid of them along with all the other cruft. PM as a title is fundamentally a jobs program for people who couldn’t hack it as programmers, or are nepo hires. You could argue a North Star like a product manager performs useful business alignment. But in 12 years across several companies I haven’t met a single project manager that is more than a professional problem manufacturer with selective hearing that miraculously ignores expert engineering opinion.
f1shy 11mo ago
>> promising features that don't yet exist is essentially their job definition Agree. I think he meant (at least my reality) they promise features that does not exist (ok) AND are impossible to implement in the promised time (or at all).
- gryfft 11mo ago
  I think there's also an element here of... when you work a long time on something, you tend to become emotionally attached to it, and you want it to be good and work well. Time to fix technical debt and work on making the product good is often implicitly waved as a carrot ahead of people who care about that sort of thing. "We can prioritize that after we ship $FEATURE." This then feels like a betrayal on an emotional level when instead of a nice block of time to fix technical debt, instead the priority becomes $NEXT_FEATURE (the "features that don't exist yet.") Management that can successfully keep the treadmill running ships features faster, so it keeps happening, and can contribute to burnout as (what felt like) implicit promises are repeatedly broken for the good of the business at the expense of the product.
  - HPsquared 11mo ago
    You can just remember that in many cases you're not replaceable, and can just insist to management. They love it really.
zwnow 11mo ago

Schiphol 11mo ago

I think this is just the nature of paid work, though. Academics are generally in love with their topic, and very much not in love with the kind of admin busywork that they have to spend much of their working hours doing.

bryanlarsen 11mo ago

I know dance instructors, cabinet makers and surgeons who all love their work as a hobby but hate it as a job.

markus_zhang 11mo ago
I think it's just they do not have the financial freedom to say No to many of the tasks. Once I have the FU money I'd definitely quit. But what is a hobbyist surgeon?
- GuinansEyebrows 11mo ago
  body modders? folks who like to hang from hooks? i wonder how many folks in those communities have advanced medical degrees.
- dangets 11mo ago
  A taxidermist.
- tuveson 11mo ago
  > But what is a hobbyist surgeon? Serial killer
cess11 11mo ago
On the face of it recreational surgery seems like a risky hobby.
- bryanlarsen 11mo ago
  I meant it as a shorthand for the standard gripe of "love my job, hate the paper work.". Many surgeons will also admit that they hate clinic work too, it's so much nicer once the patient is sedated and they can drop their bedside manner. However there are jobs close to "recreational surgery". One is surgical assisting. The pay is poor compared to being the primary surgeon, but has none of the patient or bureaucratic responsibility. Retired surgeons often do this, and not because they need the money. Another is volunteering in the third world. Little bureaucracy and no long term patient contact.

shackleton1894 11mo ago

As a solo dev in a start up, man is this true. I have a lot of control over the product, but nobody else understands or cares how features are achieved. I feel your pain.

giancarlostoro 11mo ago

> current boundaries of the product I like pushing the boundaries and making seemingly hard visions come to life. Sadly, I'm often working on CRUD applications where most things are possible and boring. At home I work on obscure side projects to see what is possible with either existing open-source projects, or non-existing projects (things I want that I can't find).

zwnow 11mo ago
> I'm often working on CRUD applications where most things are possible and boring. Gotta disagree, a lot of things aren't possible as soon as you have a data scheme set which was running in prod for a while. Introduces a lot of complexity when data structures suddenly have to change.