8 ms·

57, programming for 33 years with hardly a day off, and having more fun than ever. My motivation? It's not about the technology, the tools, the apps, the busin

by edw519 14y ago

57, programming for 33 years with hardly a day off, and having more fun than ever. My motivation? It's not about the technology, the tools, the apps, the business, the customers, or even the money, although any of those can provide plenty of motivation. And believe it or not, it's not even about the happy dance feeling I get when something I built works for the first time. It's about the achievements of those who use what I built. Hopefully that'll keep my busy for another 33 years.

daliusd 14y ago
So it is about achievements of your paying customers using your technology business's apps you wrote using tools at your hand. Simply put you are happy that you have created something useful to others or there is something more?
- 127001brewer 14y ago
  My father worked with his hands for his entire working life; at the time, he tells me, he worked on the U.S. Coast Guard Eagle more than anyone else (such as replacing the entire decking, etc). It's something that he's extremely proud of and something he can actually show his grandchildren. On the other hand, I build things that are, for the most part, abstract and virtual. I enjoy what I do because it allows me to be creative using technologies and tools that I enjoy working with. (And I really enjoy building entire applications from scratch, so much so that I will be creating businesses to really scratch my itches.) I'm proud that an application that I built half a decade ago is still being used. But, for the most part, most of my work has a limited life-span. Is that so bad?
  - IanDrake 14y ago
    I had a poster of that ship on my wall for about 10 years. It's beautiful. Your dad should be very proud.
  - ken 14y ago
    I think that the example of a military sailing vessel (!) shows that almost everything people build with their hands has a limited life-span, too. In many cases the lifespan is longer, but in other cases it's shorter. My malloc() is older than my car, even though they both still get regularly used.
  - brc 14y ago
    You should learn how to work with your hands as well. There are a lot of similarities to programming, and the things you make will last your lifetime.
- edw519 14y ago
  That's pretty much it. I'm one of those guys who comes to Hacker News, reviews what others have built, and immediately thinks 2 things: - That is so cool! - So what? Like most others, I love playing around with widgets and technology just for fun and to see what happens. But the satisfaction from this is usually short lived. I liken playing around with techology to running around and having lots of good sex with strangers. It's fun and it feels great, but sooner or later, you'll want something more substantial. For me, that requires the satisfaction of others. (This applies to both programming and sex.)
  - goatforce5 14y ago
    I build things that can help others have sex with strangers. I can quite clearly remember the first time someone came up and told me they were getting married because of my spare-time project.
    - bubbleRefuge 14y ago
      Link please ?
    - tluyben2 14y ago
      My first big side project was that; I have received over a 1000 cards/mails/etc of people who are married and/or have babies because of that side project I created with my wife on vacation on the canary islands. We expected it wouldn't get more than a handful of members, but it had 10.000 after a few months and kept growing. Very satisfying feeling for something just built for fun.
Tichy 14y ago
What kind of dev practices do you use? Would be interesting if certain habits keep coding enjoyable.
- wumpushunter 14y ago
  Check out chapter 4 of his book, "Work Habits". Available at http://edweissman.com/53640595 http://edweissman.com/53640595 and as a PDF (top of the linked page). To summarize: Use simple tools and eliminate distractions. At the end of the day, code and refactor away from the computer (on printouts). This forms the basis of the next day's work at the computer.
proex 14y ago
Well, I'm going to get into the work of a real life programmer in a year or so, finishing my degree. Quite frankly, I wouldn't want to be sitting in front of a desktop for 33 years of my own life. Not to criticize you or anything. But coding my entire life, just doesn't feel right, well as of today and the classic cubicle/desk/chair environnement, maybe I didn't pick the right job, it just feels like a very individualistic/selfish job unless maybe your stuff is open-sourced. How much do you feel you contribute to the society , for example ? Then again, I'm just starting in the domain, talking from 1 year of work experience and 3 of school experience.
- jebblue 14y ago
  >> But coding my entire life What about a brick layer, painter, electrician, school teacher, is there anything wrong with those people if they enjoy their work and dedicate their work passions to those professions? >> How much do you feel you contribute to the society Society doesn't pay the bills, companies do. Society is appreciating art, going dancing or having a barbecue.
- edw519 14y ago
  1. Critizing # "Not to critize you or anything." 2. open source # the only way to contribute My quick & easy response is #137 of my ebook (see my profile): 137. How do you put your skills to good? I’ve always thought that the best way to put your technical skills to the greater good is through your day job, not instead of it. Some of my days jobs have been to write software to ensure that: - people get the right prescription medication on time - firetrucks and ambulances get to where they're supposed to be - parts that go into cars and planes are properly certified - prisoners are kept in jail - those same prisoners get proper medical care - electronic equipment gets assembled properly and on time - medical supplies get dispatched to where they're supposed to - insurance claims are processed properly - quality data is properly maintained for food items You don’t need to do charity work on the side in order to contribute to the greater good. On the other hand, if you don’t think that the work you do during the day contributes to the greater good, then maybe you should consider doing something else with your valuable time. Do good and get paid. You can do both at the same time.
mengine 14y ago
This sounds pretty depressing to me. You're building the software that allows others to retire while you're a cog in someone else's wheel for another 33 years. Why not build your own achievements?
- outside1234 14y ago
  Being a cog in the machine allows you to focus on the code (in a good company) in a way that being in a startup doesn't. I can totally understand and respect that.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
- jackbravo 14y ago
  Who says you will do this only while you are not retired? If you really enjoy it then you will want to keep doing it even after you retire. And a programmer today earns enough to be able to do so at a good age.
- jerf 14y ago
  You're presuming an awful lot in that analysis there. Besides, who is not a cog in some wheel or other? In civilized countries, there is nobody who is at the top of all hierarchies, no King. It's a pejorative with no bite if it applies to all.
  - JoeAltmaier 14y ago
    Pretty cynical? You can have more or less autonomy in your life, that's very important. You don't have to be King to be your own boss; you don't have to be poor to be a cog.
    - jerf 14y ago
      I am a natural cynic, yes, but people tend not to pay you unless you are doing something that makes you a cog for some period of time. It's not a criticism you can just fling at someone when you don't know their context. An experienced software contractor who is picking and choosing their own jobs is still pretty autonomous. It's more about whether you can pick where you are a cog and for whom you are a cog, than whether you are doing something that somebody can point at and screech "COG! COG!". We live in a highly interdependent society, and I think that's largely a good thing.
gliese1337 14y ago
23, programming for, what, 14 years, maybe? And I hope I still have as much fun when I'm 57. I can certainly imagine myself doing so, for much the same reasons; it is partially about the happy dance feeling when something I built works, but long-term happiness and satisfaction come from seeing it getting used. It's really, really cool to see someone's masters thesis and think "I helped make that!" or drive by an elementary school and thing "they're using my stuff!" I may not be writing the same kinds of programs for the rest of my life, but I hope I don't ever get tired of writing useful software.
- Wintamute 14y ago
  I think it makes more sense to start measuring from the time you started professionally programming ... so if the 57 year old parent has been programming for 33 years that suggests that he's measuring from when he left full time education (24). My apologies if you've been coding professionally since you were 9 though :)
  - fooandbarify 14y ago
    I wouldn't put it past gliese1337. I turned 24 yesterday, and I can honestly tell clients that I've been programming professionally for over a decade. (Obviously, my abilities/standards have changed since then, and so have my rates... hopefully that trend will continue!)
    - robryan 14y ago
      I picked up a few jobs online around that same age, 13-15. I don't think I really had enough drive to start picking up better jobs or taking on follow up work for the clients. Was a better time in a way, not really needing money I was actually more happy just doing my own stuff and helping out with sites online I was interested in.
  - gliese1337 14y ago
    Good point, but I'm not really sure how to judge that. I've been getting paid for it for about 5 years, but that doesn't encompass all the stuff that I've built that other people have found useful, which is the metric that I care about. So, 8-ish, maybe? Anyway, the point is that I don't have 33 years under my belt, so maybe I'm wrong about how I'll feel in the future, but based on the experience I do have, I just don't imagine it ever getting old.
northband 14y ago
Very nice - you have meaning which is the best.
testing12341234 14y ago
Completely agree. I've turned down many offers to move in to management positions over the years. People start giving me weird looks until I explain to them that coding is my passion, and I want to do it until the day I die. Any position that takes me away from coding is pretty much an automatic no.
IanDrake 14y ago
Frankly, there aren't enough of you out there. As a consultant, I've rarely met a developer over 50 who's still interested in their job (however I wonder if they ever were). In the few cases I have, it's been amazing. The stories someone with 33 years of quality experience can tell you about are eye opening. They can remind you of how far we've come, how what's old is new again, and how to adapt in an ever changing tech scene. My father is 73 and still works in sales because he loves it. I'd hope to do the same thing in IT.
- tptacek 14y ago
  I've met developers over 50 who were passionate not only about their job but about their prospects for learning new things. I think that's a character attribute that you either have or don't have, and I don't see a lot of evidence that it fades with age. I have also met a lot of developers who are passionate about the lifestyle features of being a startup software developer but who are also willfully stuck in ruts like spending months cultivating positions about which testing framework best expresses the right testing methodology, or whether HTML is best generated serverside or clientside. They don't read papers, they plan on maybe one day learning C, but they wear the right t-shirt and are on the right IRC channels. These are things that might matter a lot when you're just starting out in your career but don't so much matter at all when you've got your sea legs. There are a lot of those people and I think that may color our impression of which age bracket is most engaged.
- marquis 14y ago
  The older programmers I know are in niche fields, like audio effects processing or hardware hacking. It's not a job, it's what you get up and do with your brain every day.
  - dumb-dumb 14y ago
    In other words, the interesting stuff! :)
    - mehulkar 14y ago
crag 14y ago
49, programming since I was 15. I'll admit, now I'm in management. I still code. When I want to. And that's a luxury I can afford myself; "coding when I want too". My days of 48-hours-staring-at-a-screen are over. Thankfully. I enjoy code much more now. Back when it was my job, it was a job. You know what's funny? I comment my code more now than I ever did when I was in my 20's.
jufo 14y ago
Dead right. I'm 60 and I feel the same.
ralphc 14y ago
50, programming professionally for 28 years, still loving it, currently enjoying Odesky's FP class in Scala on coursera.
pradocchia 14y ago
I don't know how many times I've read one of your comments and thought, "I should move to Pittsburg so I can work with this guy." Your sentiments about programming and what makes it so compelling resonate deeply with me.
jmadsen 14y ago
youngster at 45. can't wait till I retire so I can finally learn some of the fringe stuff I want to play with but have no time. to me, being a programmer is living the life of a perpetual student. how can anyone grow bored with that?
- Toenex 14y ago
  Great point. I think a lot of us who still love programming after 20 years or more enjoy the constant change in the industry and the never ending opportunities to learn.
- eda 14y ago
  I think that older successful programmers are essentially life-long students of technology.
rehack 14y ago
I turned 41 yesterday. Have been programming for over 18 years. Like you I also love it. And since work coding does not offer me enough of a challenge always. I like to do some fun (challenge kind of) coding on my own. Some random examples of the fun programming I have done: 1) When I started out programming, some two decades back, I did a program which was tough for me then (I believe its a pretty standard program given to people who are learning programming). It was - 'How to place 8 queens on a chess board so that they don't attack each other'. 2) A C -program which prints itself. 3) More recently I read Norvig's solving every Sudoku puzzle (http://norvig.com/sudoku.html http://norvig.com/sudoku.html), so went ahead and wrote my own (without looking at his solution of course). 4) Solving this ('Going Office' on Interview Street : https://www.interviewstreet.com/challenges/dashboard/#problem/4f6522ab2f425 https://www.interviewstreet.com/challenges/dashboard/#proble...) one gave me immense amount of satisfaction, when I did a couple of months back. As I had not done complicated graph stuff earlier. I game my family a treat, just because I was so happy when all my test cases passed :-) So programming has been a joy of my life. Hope to do it for many more years. Will try.
pigboy 14y ago
That used to motivate me too. But when I found myself in a job where my work no longer made that happen, I quit and changed careers (mid-40s). I just turned 50 and I am in my third year teaching high-school math, physics and computer science. It's like being born again.

by edw519 14y ago

daliusd 14y ago

So it is about achievements of your paying customers using your technology business's apps you wrote using tools at your hand. Simply put you are happy that you have created something useful to others or there is something more?

127001brewer 14y ago
My father worked with his hands for his entire working life; at the time, he tells me, he worked on the U.S. Coast Guard Eagle more than anyone else (such as replacing the entire decking, etc). It's something that he's extremely proud of and something he can actually show his grandchildren. On the other hand, I build things that are, for the most part, abstract and virtual. I enjoy what I do because it allows me to be creative using technologies and tools that I enjoy working with. (And I really enjoy building entire applications from scratch, so much so that I will be creating businesses to really scratch my itches.) I'm proud that an application that I built half a decade ago is still being used. But, for the most part, most of my work has a limited life-span. Is that so bad?
- IanDrake 14y ago
  I had a poster of that ship on my wall for about 10 years. It's beautiful. Your dad should be very proud.
- ken 14y ago
  I think that the example of a military sailing vessel (!) shows that almost everything people build with their hands has a limited life-span, too. In many cases the lifespan is longer, but in other cases it's shorter. My malloc() is older than my car, even though they both still get regularly used.
- brc 14y ago
  You should learn how to work with your hands as well. There are a lot of similarities to programming, and the things you make will last your lifetime.
edw519 14y ago
That's pretty much it. I'm one of those guys who comes to Hacker News, reviews what others have built, and immediately thinks 2 things: - That is so cool! - So what? Like most others, I love playing around with widgets and technology just for fun and to see what happens. But the satisfaction from this is usually short lived. I liken playing around with techology to running around and having lots of good sex with strangers. It's fun and it feels great, but sooner or later, you'll want something more substantial. For me, that requires the satisfaction of others. (This applies to both programming and sex.)
- goatforce5 14y ago
  I build things that can help others have sex with strangers. I can quite clearly remember the first time someone came up and told me they were getting married because of my spare-time project.
  - bubbleRefuge 14y ago
    Link please ?
  - tluyben2 14y ago
    My first big side project was that; I have received over a 1000 cards/mails/etc of people who are married and/or have babies because of that side project I created with my wife on vacation on the canary islands. We expected it wouldn't get more than a handful of members, but it had 10.000 after a few months and kept growing. Very satisfying feeling for something just built for fun.

Tichy 14y ago

What kind of dev practices do you use? Would be interesting if certain habits keep coding enjoyable.

wumpushunter 14y ago
Check out chapter 4 of his book, "Work Habits". Available at http://edweissman.com/53640595 http://edweissman.com/53640595 and as a PDF (top of the linked page). To summarize: Use simple tools and eliminate distractions. At the end of the day, code and refactor away from the computer (on printouts). This forms the basis of the next day's work at the computer.

proex 14y ago

Well, I'm going to get into the work of a real life programmer in a year or so, finishing my degree. Quite frankly, I wouldn't want to be sitting in front of a desktop for 33 years of my own life. Not to criticize you or anything. But coding my entire life, just doesn't feel right, well as of today and the classic cubicle/desk/chair environnement, maybe I didn't pick the right job, it just feels like a very individualistic/selfish job unless maybe your stuff is open-sourced. How much do you feel you contribute to the society , for example ? Then again, I'm just starting in the domain, talking from 1 year of work experience and 3 of school experience.

jebblue 14y ago
>> But coding my entire life What about a brick layer, painter, electrician, school teacher, is there anything wrong with those people if they enjoy their work and dedicate their work passions to those professions? >> How much do you feel you contribute to the society Society doesn't pay the bills, companies do. Society is appreciating art, going dancing or having a barbecue.
edw519 14y ago
1. Critizing # "Not to critize you or anything." 2. open source # the only way to contribute My quick & easy response is #137 of my ebook (see my profile): 137. How do you put your skills to good? I’ve always thought that the best way to put your technical skills to the greater good is through your day job, not instead of it. Some of my days jobs have been to write software to ensure that: - people get the right prescription medication on time - firetrucks and ambulances get to where they're supposed to be - parts that go into cars and planes are properly certified - prisoners are kept in jail - those same prisoners get proper medical care - electronic equipment gets assembled properly and on time - medical supplies get dispatched to where they're supposed to - insurance claims are processed properly - quality data is properly maintained for food items You don’t need to do charity work on the side in order to contribute to the greater good. On the other hand, if you don’t think that the work you do during the day contributes to the greater good, then maybe you should consider doing something else with your valuable time. Do good and get paid. You can do both at the same time.

mengine 14y ago

This sounds pretty depressing to me. You're building the software that allows others to retire while you're a cog in someone else's wheel for another 33 years. Why not build your own achievements?

outside1234 14y ago
Being a cog in the machine allows you to focus on the code (in a good company) in a way that being in a startup doesn't. I can totally understand and respect that.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
jackbravo 14y ago
Who says you will do this only while you are not retired? If you really enjoy it then you will want to keep doing it even after you retire. And a programmer today earns enough to be able to do so at a good age.
jerf 14y ago
You're presuming an awful lot in that analysis there. Besides, who is not a cog in some wheel or other? In civilized countries, there is nobody who is at the top of all hierarchies, no King. It's a pejorative with no bite if it applies to all.
- JoeAltmaier 14y ago
  Pretty cynical? You can have more or less autonomy in your life, that's very important. You don't have to be King to be your own boss; you don't have to be poor to be a cog.
  - jerf 14y ago
    I am a natural cynic, yes, but people tend not to pay you unless you are doing something that makes you a cog for some period of time. It's not a criticism you can just fling at someone when you don't know their context. An experienced software contractor who is picking and choosing their own jobs is still pretty autonomous. It's more about whether you can pick where you are a cog and for whom you are a cog, than whether you are doing something that somebody can point at and screech "COG! COG!". We live in a highly interdependent society, and I think that's largely a good thing.

gliese1337 14y ago

23, programming for, what, 14 years, maybe? And I hope I still have as much fun when I'm 57. I can certainly imagine myself doing so, for much the same reasons; it is partially about the happy dance feeling when something I built works, but long-term happiness and satisfaction come from seeing it getting used. It's really, really cool to see someone's masters thesis and think "I helped make that!" or drive by an elementary school and thing "they're using my stuff!" I may not be writing the same kinds of programs for the rest of my life, but I hope I don't ever get tired of writing useful software.

Wintamute 14y ago
I think it makes more sense to start measuring from the time you started professionally programming ... so if the 57 year old parent has been programming for 33 years that suggests that he's measuring from when he left full time education (24). My apologies if you've been coding professionally since you were 9 though :)
- fooandbarify 14y ago
  I wouldn't put it past gliese1337. I turned 24 yesterday, and I can honestly tell clients that I've been programming professionally for over a decade. (Obviously, my abilities/standards have changed since then, and so have my rates... hopefully that trend will continue!)
  - robryan 14y ago
    I picked up a few jobs online around that same age, 13-15. I don't think I really had enough drive to start picking up better jobs or taking on follow up work for the clients. Was a better time in a way, not really needing money I was actually more happy just doing my own stuff and helping out with sites online I was interested in.
- gliese1337 14y ago
  Good point, but I'm not really sure how to judge that. I've been getting paid for it for about 5 years, but that doesn't encompass all the stuff that I've built that other people have found useful, which is the metric that I care about. So, 8-ish, maybe? Anyway, the point is that I don't have 33 years under my belt, so maybe I'm wrong about how I'll feel in the future, but based on the experience I do have, I just don't imagine it ever getting old.

northband 14y ago

Very nice - you have meaning which is the best.

testing12341234 14y ago

Completely agree. I've turned down many offers to move in to management positions over the years. People start giving me weird looks until I explain to them that coding is my passion, and I want to do it until the day I die. Any position that takes me away from coding is pretty much an automatic no.

IanDrake 14y ago

Frankly, there aren't enough of you out there. As a consultant, I've rarely met a developer over 50 who's still interested in their job (however I wonder if they ever were). In the few cases I have, it's been amazing. The stories someone with 33 years of quality experience can tell you about are eye opening. They can remind you of how far we've come, how what's old is new again, and how to adapt in an ever changing tech scene. My father is 73 and still works in sales because he loves it. I'd hope to do the same thing in IT.

tptacek 14y ago
I've met developers over 50 who were passionate not only about their job but about their prospects for learning new things. I think that's a character attribute that you either have or don't have, and I don't see a lot of evidence that it fades with age. I have also met a lot of developers who are passionate about the lifestyle features of being a startup software developer but who are also willfully stuck in ruts like spending months cultivating positions about which testing framework best expresses the right testing methodology, or whether HTML is best generated serverside or clientside. They don't read papers, they plan on maybe one day learning C, but they wear the right t-shirt and are on the right IRC channels. These are things that might matter a lot when you're just starting out in your career but don't so much matter at all when you've got your sea legs. There are a lot of those people and I think that may color our impression of which age bracket is most engaged.
marquis 14y ago
The older programmers I know are in niche fields, like audio effects processing or hardware hacking. It's not a job, it's what you get up and do with your brain every day.
- dumb-dumb 14y ago
  In other words, the interesting stuff! :)
  - mehulkar 14y ago

crag 14y ago

49, programming since I was 15. I'll admit, now I'm in management. I still code. When I want to. And that's a luxury I can afford myself; "coding when I want too". My days of 48-hours-staring-at-a-screen are over. Thankfully. I enjoy code much more now. Back when it was my job, it was a job. You know what's funny? I comment my code more now than I ever did when I was in my 20's.

jufo 14y ago

Dead right. I'm 60 and I feel the same.

ralphc 14y ago

50, programming professionally for 28 years, still loving it, currently enjoying Odesky's FP class in Scala on coursera.

pradocchia 14y ago

I don't know how many times I've read one of your comments and thought, "I should move to Pittsburg so I can work with this guy." Your sentiments about programming and what makes it so compelling resonate deeply with me.

jmadsen 14y ago

youngster at 45. can't wait till I retire so I can finally learn some of the fringe stuff I want to play with but have no time. to me, being a programmer is living the life of a perpetual student. how can anyone grow bored with that?

Toenex 14y ago
Great point. I think a lot of us who still love programming after 20 years or more enjoy the constant change in the industry and the never ending opportunities to learn.
eda 14y ago
I think that older successful programmers are essentially life-long students of technology.

rehack 14y ago

I turned 41 yesterday. Have been programming for over 18 years. Like you I also love it. And since work coding does not offer me enough of a challenge always. I like to do some fun (challenge kind of) coding on my own. Some random examples of the fun programming I have done: 1) When I started out programming, some two decades back, I did a program which was tough for me then (I believe its a pretty standard program given to people who are learning programming). It was - 'How to place 8 queens on a chess board so that they don't attack each other'. 2) A C -program which prints itself. 3) More recently I read Norvig's solving every Sudoku puzzle (http://norvig.com/sudoku.html http://norvig.com/sudoku.html), so went ahead and wrote my own (without looking at his solution of course). 4) Solving this ('Going Office' on Interview Street : https://www.interviewstreet.com/challenges/dashboard/#problem/4f6522ab2f425 https://www.interviewstreet.com/challenges/dashboard/#proble...) one gave me immense amount of satisfaction, when I did a couple of months back. As I had not done complicated graph stuff earlier. I game my family a treat, just because I was so happy when all my test cases passed :-) So programming has been a joy of my life. Hope to do it for many more years. Will try.

pigboy 14y ago

That used to motivate me too. But when I found myself in a job where my work no longer made that happen, I quit and changed careers (mid-40s). I just turned 50 and I am in my third year teaching high-school math, physics and computer science. It's like being born again.