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Top universities and almost exclusively dominated by the US. Well done! You see, that's the real indicator of innovation, IMHO. I'm not saying that all inno

by ak39 14y ago

Top universities and almost exclusively dominated by the US. Well done! You see, that's the real indicator of innovation, IMHO. I'm not saying that all innovation/research takes place or has to happen in the universities, but there is something to be said about the American ethic of obsession with creating something out of nothing - they are so in love with the idea of potential, they're so enamoured by the promise of "could be" that they spend top dollar educating their younger generation in institutions that echo their values. It's veritably sickening! ;-) As long as this list continues to show US domination, the Apples will always be invented in the US and manufactured elsewhere. Symptom of a society. Good list.

eli_gottlieb 14y ago
You see, that's the real indicator of innovation, IMHO. I'm not saying that all innovation/research takes place or has to happen in the universities, but there is something to be said about the American ethic of obsession with creating something out of nothing - they are so in love with the idea of potential, they're so enamoured by the promise of "could be" that they spend top dollar educating their younger generation in institutions that echo their values. It's veritably sickening! ;-) Great, but how many of the undergrad students are American-born, how many of the grad-students, and how many post-docs and faculty? In my experience of American academia, most of the undergrads and the older professors are American, but as full-time academic positions have dried up, more and more of the grad-students, post-docs and faculty are foreigners. The reason is simple: it has stopped being a good career move for a young American to aspire to work in academia, whereas even with the slim odds we have nowadays, it remains an excellent career move for someone from, say, India or China. After all, even if you don't get a faculty position in America, your American training will let you walk right into one "back home".
- ak39 14y ago
  Point taken. But does it really matter that the students are not "American-born"? How many expat students really return to their native countries? I think the investments in education ultimately stays closer to the institutions.
  - eli_gottlieb 14y ago
    But does it really matter that the students are not "American-born"? If you're trying to talk about the impact of American universities on America's innovative capacity and America's economy, then yes, it matters how many students and graduates are American-born -- because only an extreme few of those immigrant students are getting Green Cards. It also matters to consider American-born students rather than all citizens and prospective citizens because we're trying to get an indication of what people think about the American labor market. The best way to measure that is to look at people who are confined to the American labor market. If we had a "points-based" immigration system like Canada, say, I would be asking how many graduates are American citizens. But we don't. Most international students I met were planning on either going "back home" or rising through further academic degrees (ie: grad-school) in order to continue their visas long enough to at least try for a Green Card and/or American citizenship. The economic impact of the latter is limited to academia.... which gets us back to the very problem I've been trying to articulate: that academia (in the sense of teaching and research, not just university incomes or spending) has been killed off as a major economic engine in America. http://infoproc.blogspot.co.il/2008/05/dont-become-scientist-philip-greenspun.html http://infoproc.blogspot.co.il/2008/05/dont-become-scientist... -- here is our problem, described twice. American STEM innovation/research is a bad career path. That's the core problem, but people keep trying to fix it by... futzing around with the immigration laws so that America can exploit foreign labor and foreign investments in education and research training rather than having to pay for the innovators it supposedly wants.

by ak39 14y ago

eli_gottlieb 14y ago

You see, that's the real indicator of innovation, IMHO. I'm not saying that all innovation/research takes place or has to happen in the universities, but there is something to be said about the American ethic of obsession with creating something out of nothing - they are so in love with the idea of potential, they're so enamoured by the promise of "could be" that they spend top dollar educating their younger generation in institutions that echo their values. It's veritably sickening! ;-) Great, but how many of the undergrad students are American-born, how many of the grad-students, and how many post-docs and faculty? In my experience of American academia, most of the undergrads and the older professors are American, but as full-time academic positions have dried up, more and more of the grad-students, post-docs and faculty are foreigners. The reason is simple: it has stopped being a good career move for a young American to aspire to work in academia, whereas even with the slim odds we have nowadays, it remains an excellent career move for someone from, say, India or China. After all, even if you don't get a faculty position in America, your American training will let you walk right into one "back home".

ak39 14y ago
Point taken. But does it really matter that the students are not "American-born"? How many expat students really return to their native countries? I think the investments in education ultimately stays closer to the institutions.
- eli_gottlieb 14y ago
  But does it really matter that the students are not "American-born"? If you're trying to talk about the impact of American universities on America's innovative capacity and America's economy, then yes, it matters how many students and graduates are American-born -- because only an extreme few of those immigrant students are getting Green Cards. It also matters to consider American-born students rather than all citizens and prospective citizens because we're trying to get an indication of what people think about the American labor market. The best way to measure that is to look at people who are confined to the American labor market. If we had a "points-based" immigration system like Canada, say, I would be asking how many graduates are American citizens. But we don't. Most international students I met were planning on either going "back home" or rising through further academic degrees (ie: grad-school) in order to continue their visas long enough to at least try for a Green Card and/or American citizenship. The economic impact of the latter is limited to academia.... which gets us back to the very problem I've been trying to articulate: that academia (in the sense of teaching and research, not just university incomes or spending) has been killed off as a major economic engine in America. http://infoproc.blogspot.co.il/2008/05/dont-become-scientist-philip-greenspun.html http://infoproc.blogspot.co.il/2008/05/dont-become-scientist... -- here is our problem, described twice. American STEM innovation/research is a bad career path. That's the core problem, but people keep trying to fix it by... futzing around with the immigration laws so that America can exploit foreign labor and foreign investments in education and research training rather than having to pay for the innovators it supposedly wants.