5 ms·

Is this the better Id system everyones been asking for? In many countries a declaration that you have no id card will be met with a blank stare by most people.

Is this the better Id system everyones been asking for? In many countries a declaration that you have no id card will be met with a blank stare by most people. In the UK it's one of the most politically toxic ideas imaginable. So extra points to the Starmer government for making it exponentially worse by proposing it be mandatory AND digital. We already have cheap passports, licenses and national insurance numbers, so i cannot think of a single way this measure will improve our lives. A consideration which is completely alien to Starmer and co, who can't understand why people are so stupid to prefer the "fascist" narrative over theirs.

nemomarx 10mo ago
This is just the drivers license with I think slightly more photographing or background checking, and in a different database? And a fancy star hologram. Someone jump in if I've missed a crucial detail, but I don't think it's comparable to the digital ID thing of pulling in disparate systems or being easily scanned from an app or what have you.
- givemeethekeys 10mo ago
  My guess is that it harmonizes federal and state records for identifying individuals.
  - kayodelycaon 10mo ago
    It’s definitely security related. Some states did barely any verification and didn’t have much protection against fake cards. In Ohio, you could show them a birth certificate and Social Security card and a few minutes later have a freshly printed ID. If you got your hands on the blank ID cards and a standard commercial card printer, you could make fake IDs all day.
    - givemeethekeys 10mo ago
      I imagine the more services are provided by an organization, the more that organization has to worry about who is receiving them.
  - jandrewrogers 10mo ago
    It harmonizes the schema and process across States. Sharing it with the Federal government is optional since the Federal government doesn’t have the authority to force compliance. Many States opted out of sharing their databases with the Federal government last I checked.
    - ssl-3 10mo ago
      Which states? Or: How does one even begin looking into this kind of [non] arrangement? (AFAIK, I'm not necessarily privy to the details of the dealings my state has with the federal government. I'd love to know where to look to see that kind of thing.)
- simoncion 10mo ago
  At least in California, it also requires one to present significantly more documentation. Last I checked, it also goes into a central Federal database, whereas ordinary State-issued IDs do not. If I'm going to get a damn passport, I'm going to get a passport that lets me leave the country.
  - nemomarx 10mo ago
    I just presented my passport and the usual proof of address stuff to get it. That does seem like the best flow, if a little redundant maybe.
    - maxerickson 10mo ago
      One of the requirements for Real ID is that the issuer confirmed legal status (either citizenship or immigration status).
      - BobaFloutist 10mo ago
        A US passport is proof of citizenship.
- kayodelycaon 10mo ago
  As far as I know this is correct. It’s similar to what’s required to get a passport. If you already have a passport, no verification is required.
- ssl-3 10mo ago
  It's just an ID, like a driver's license can also be considered as "just an ID". But previously: The individual States all issued IDs themselves. They each made up their own rules about who could and could not get one. They didn't necessarily share this information with the federal government, and citizenship wasn't necessarily a requirement at all to get a state ID such as a driver's license. But Real ID is not that. It broadly requires proof of citizenship[1] or lawful status in order to obtain one. So, for example: As a native-born US citizen, that's a new requirement for me -- nothing else I've ever done in life has required me to prove my citizenship. I've had a state-issued driver's license for decades. I've had mortgages, paid taxes, and lead a fairly productive life without citizenship status ever being a concern. But I don't presently have enough documentation to prove the citizenship that I've always had, so no flying for me (for now -- I'll have to get that sorted sooner or later). [1]: There are some exceptions. https://www.tsa.gov/real-id/real-id-faqs https://www.tsa.gov/real-id/real-id-faqs
  - nobody9999 10mo ago
    >So, for example: As a native-born US citizen, that's a new requirement for me -- nothing else I've ever done in life has required me to prove my citizenship. Unless you're really young (under 16 or so) and/or never had a job that paid wages, you've "proved" your citizenship (well, more specifically your right to work in the US which, in your case, adds up to the same thing) by filling out an IRS W9 form[0], which is required for any jobs which pays wages (whether that be hourly wages or a straight salary) by certifying -- under penalty of perjury if you lie -- that you're either a citizen or otherwise allowed to work in the US.[1] I'm guessing you've "proven" your citizenship (or at least your legal presence/right to work in the US) at least once and likely (depending on how many employers you've had) more often.[3] [0] https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw9.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw9.pdf [1] No, this isn't specifically a test of citizenship, especially since non-citizen legal residents are also eligible to obtain RealID documents[2]. [2] https://www.pa.gov/agencies/dmv/driver-services/real-id/real-id-info-for-non-us-citizens https://www.pa.gov/agencies/dmv/driver-services/real-id/real... [3] Please note that I'm absolutely not playing "gotcha" here. Rather, I'm pointing out that although we don't have Federal ID cards (although a passport certainly is that, and you Taxpayer ID Number -- usually your Social Security number -- are, in fact, Federal IDs) and RealID isn't a "Federal" ID. It's an "enhanced" (i.e., specific and often additional information specified by the Federal government is required to be submitted to your state of residence's licensing authority (usually the state Department of Motor Vehicles). As such, it's not actually a Federal ID, but a state ID with standardized requirements for verification across the US.
Animats 10mo ago
Varies by country. [1] Europe, even within the Schengen zone, is split on this. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_identity_card_policies_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_identity_card...

nemomarx 10mo ago

This is just the drivers license with I think slightly more photographing or background checking, and in a different database? And a fancy star hologram. Someone jump in if I've missed a crucial detail, but I don't think it's comparable to the digital ID thing of pulling in disparate systems or being easily scanned from an app or what have you.

givemeethekeys 10mo ago
My guess is that it harmonizes federal and state records for identifying individuals.
- kayodelycaon 10mo ago
  It’s definitely security related. Some states did barely any verification and didn’t have much protection against fake cards. In Ohio, you could show them a birth certificate and Social Security card and a few minutes later have a freshly printed ID. If you got your hands on the blank ID cards and a standard commercial card printer, you could make fake IDs all day.
  - givemeethekeys 10mo ago
    I imagine the more services are provided by an organization, the more that organization has to worry about who is receiving them.
- jandrewrogers 10mo ago
  It harmonizes the schema and process across States. Sharing it with the Federal government is optional since the Federal government doesn’t have the authority to force compliance. Many States opted out of sharing their databases with the Federal government last I checked.
  - ssl-3 10mo ago
    Which states? Or: How does one even begin looking into this kind of [non] arrangement? (AFAIK, I'm not necessarily privy to the details of the dealings my state has with the federal government. I'd love to know where to look to see that kind of thing.)
simoncion 10mo ago
At least in California, it also requires one to present significantly more documentation. Last I checked, it also goes into a central Federal database, whereas ordinary State-issued IDs do not. If I'm going to get a damn passport, I'm going to get a passport that lets me leave the country.
- nemomarx 10mo ago
  I just presented my passport and the usual proof of address stuff to get it. That does seem like the best flow, if a little redundant maybe.
  - maxerickson 10mo ago
    One of the requirements for Real ID is that the issuer confirmed legal status (either citizenship or immigration status).
    - BobaFloutist 10mo ago
      A US passport is proof of citizenship.
kayodelycaon 10mo ago
As far as I know this is correct. It’s similar to what’s required to get a passport. If you already have a passport, no verification is required.
ssl-3 10mo ago
It's just an ID, like a driver's license can also be considered as "just an ID". But previously: The individual States all issued IDs themselves. They each made up their own rules about who could and could not get one. They didn't necessarily share this information with the federal government, and citizenship wasn't necessarily a requirement at all to get a state ID such as a driver's license. But Real ID is not that. It broadly requires proof of citizenship[1] or lawful status in order to obtain one. So, for example: As a native-born US citizen, that's a new requirement for me -- nothing else I've ever done in life has required me to prove my citizenship. I've had a state-issued driver's license for decades. I've had mortgages, paid taxes, and lead a fairly productive life without citizenship status ever being a concern. But I don't presently have enough documentation to prove the citizenship that I've always had, so no flying for me (for now -- I'll have to get that sorted sooner or later). [1]: There are some exceptions. https://www.tsa.gov/real-id/real-id-faqs https://www.tsa.gov/real-id/real-id-faqs
- nobody9999 10mo ago
  >So, for example: As a native-born US citizen, that's a new requirement for me -- nothing else I've ever done in life has required me to prove my citizenship. Unless you're really young (under 16 or so) and/or never had a job that paid wages, you've "proved" your citizenship (well, more specifically your right to work in the US which, in your case, adds up to the same thing) by filling out an IRS W9 form[0], which is required for any jobs which pays wages (whether that be hourly wages or a straight salary) by certifying -- under penalty of perjury if you lie -- that you're either a citizen or otherwise allowed to work in the US.[1] I'm guessing you've "proven" your citizenship (or at least your legal presence/right to work in the US) at least once and likely (depending on how many employers you've had) more often.[3] [0] https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw9.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw9.pdf [1] No, this isn't specifically a test of citizenship, especially since non-citizen legal residents are also eligible to obtain RealID documents[2]. [2] https://www.pa.gov/agencies/dmv/driver-services/real-id/real-id-info-for-non-us-citizens https://www.pa.gov/agencies/dmv/driver-services/real-id/real... [3] Please note that I'm absolutely not playing "gotcha" here. Rather, I'm pointing out that although we don't have Federal ID cards (although a passport certainly is that, and you Taxpayer ID Number -- usually your Social Security number -- are, in fact, Federal IDs) and RealID isn't a "Federal" ID. It's an "enhanced" (i.e., specific and often additional information specified by the Federal government is required to be submitted to your state of residence's licensing authority (usually the state Department of Motor Vehicles). As such, it's not actually a Federal ID, but a state ID with standardized requirements for verification across the US.

Animats 10mo ago

Varies by country. [1] Europe, even within the Schengen zone, is split on this. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_identity_card_policies_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_identity_card...