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> Saying "well you have to follow the market" is such a cravenly amoral perspective. You only have to follow the market if you want to continue to stay relevan

> Saying "well you have to follow the market" is such a cravenly amoral perspective. You only have to follow the market if you want to continue to stay relevant. Taking a stand and refusing to follow the market is always an option, but it might mean going out of business for ideological reasons. So practically speaking, the options are follow the market or find a different line of work if you don’t like the way the market is going.

afavour 1y ago
I still don’t blame anyone for trying to chart a different course though. It’s truly depressing to have to accept that the only way to make a living in a field is to compromise your principles. The ideal version of my job would be partnering with all the local businesses around me that I know and love, elevating their online facilities to let all of us thrive. But the money simply isn’t there. Instead their profits and my happiness are funnelled through corporate behemoths. I’ll applaud anyone who is willing to step outside of that.
- Aurornis 1y ago
  > It’s truly depressing to have to accept that the only way to make a living in a field is to compromise your principles. Of course. If you want the world to go back to how it was before, you’re going to be very depressed in any business. That’s why I said your only real options are going with the market or finding a different line of work. Technically there’s a third option where you stay put and watch bank accounts decline until you’re forced to choose one of the first two options, but it’s never as satisfying in retrospect as you imagined that small act of protest would have been.
  - afavour 1y ago
    I don't think we're really disagreeing here. You're saying "this is the way things are", I'm saying "I salute anyone who tries to change the way things are". Even in the linked post the author isn't complaining that it's not fair or whatever, they're simply stating that they are losing money as a result of their moral choice. I don't think they're deluded about the cause and effect.
- __MatrixMan__ 1y ago
  > It’s truly depressing to have to accept that the only way to make a living in a field is to compromise your principles. Isn't that what money is though, a way to get people to stop what they're doing and do what you want them to instead? It's how Rome bent its conquests to its will and we've been doing it ever since. It's a deeply broken system but I think that acknowledging it as such is the first step towards replacing it with something less broken.
  - afavour 1y ago
    > Isn't that what money is though, a way to get people to stop what they're doing and do what you want them to instead? It doesn't have to be. Plenty of people are fulfilled by their jobs and make good money doing them.
    - __MatrixMan__ 1y ago
      Some users might not mind the lack of control, but beyond a certain point it stops making sense to strive to be in that diminishing set and starts making sense to fix the bug. We've always tolerated a certain portion of society who finds the situation unacceptable, but don't you suspect that things will change if that portion is most of us? Maybe we're not there yet, idk, but the article is about the unease vs the data, and I think the unease comes from the awareness that that's where we're headed.
  - BrenBarn 1y ago
    I don't think that's necessarily what money is, but it is kind of what sufficiently unregulated capitalism is, which is what we've had for a while now.
  - johnnyanmac 1y ago
    >Isn't that what money is though If you're only raised in a grifter's society, sure. Money is to be conquered and extracted. But we came definetly shift back to a society where money is one to help keep the boat afloat for everyone to pursue their own interests, and not a losing game of Monopoly where the rich get richer.
brooke2k 1y ago
> it might mean going out of business for ideological reasons taking a moral stance isn't inherently ideological
ryanmcbride 1y ago
Sometimes companies become irrelevant while following the market, while other companies revolutionize the market by NOT following it. It's not "swim with the tide or die", it's "float like a corpse down the river, or swim". Which direction you swim in will certainly be a different level of effort, and you can end up as a corpse no matter what, but that doesn't mean the only option you have is to give up.
tenacious_tuna 1y ago
I was talking to a friend of mine about a related topic when he quipped that he realized he started disliking therapy when he realized they effectively were just teaching him coping strategies for an economic system that is inherently amoral. > So practically speaking, the options are follow the market or find a different line of work if you don’t like the way the market is going. You're correct in this, but I think it's worth making the explicit statement that that's also true because we live in a system of amoral resource allocation. Yes, this is a forum centered on startups, so there's a certain economic bias at play, but on the subject of morality I think there's a fair case to be made that it's reasonable to want to oppose an inherently unjust system and to be frustrated that doing so makes survival difficult. We shouldn't have to choose between principles and food on the table.
- jfil 1y ago
  > We shouldn't have to choose between principles and food on the table. I am increasingly convinced that these are the only true kind of ethical decision. Painless/straightforward ethical decisions that you make every day - they probably don't even register on your radar. But a tough tradeoff does.
jayd16 1y ago
By not following the market you change the market.
johnnyanmac 1y ago
>the options are follow the market or find a different line of work if you don’t like the way the market is going You can also just outlive the irrationality. If we could stop beating around the bush and admit we're in a recession, that would explain a lot of things. You just gotta bear the storm. It's way too late to jump on the AI train anyway. Maybe one more year, but I'd be surprised if that bubble doesn't pop by the end of 2027.

afavour 1y ago

I still don’t blame anyone for trying to chart a different course though. It’s truly depressing to have to accept that the only way to make a living in a field is to compromise your principles. The ideal version of my job would be partnering with all the local businesses around me that I know and love, elevating their online facilities to let all of us thrive. But the money simply isn’t there. Instead their profits and my happiness are funnelled through corporate behemoths. I’ll applaud anyone who is willing to step outside of that.

Aurornis 1y ago
> It’s truly depressing to have to accept that the only way to make a living in a field is to compromise your principles. Of course. If you want the world to go back to how it was before, you’re going to be very depressed in any business. That’s why I said your only real options are going with the market or finding a different line of work. Technically there’s a third option where you stay put and watch bank accounts decline until you’re forced to choose one of the first two options, but it’s never as satisfying in retrospect as you imagined that small act of protest would have been.
- afavour 1y ago
  I don't think we're really disagreeing here. You're saying "this is the way things are", I'm saying "I salute anyone who tries to change the way things are". Even in the linked post the author isn't complaining that it's not fair or whatever, they're simply stating that they are losing money as a result of their moral choice. I don't think they're deluded about the cause and effect.
__MatrixMan__ 1y ago
> It’s truly depressing to have to accept that the only way to make a living in a field is to compromise your principles. Isn't that what money is though, a way to get people to stop what they're doing and do what you want them to instead? It's how Rome bent its conquests to its will and we've been doing it ever since. It's a deeply broken system but I think that acknowledging it as such is the first step towards replacing it with something less broken.
- afavour 1y ago
  > Isn't that what money is though, a way to get people to stop what they're doing and do what you want them to instead? It doesn't have to be. Plenty of people are fulfilled by their jobs and make good money doing them.
  - __MatrixMan__ 1y ago
    Some users might not mind the lack of control, but beyond a certain point it stops making sense to strive to be in that diminishing set and starts making sense to fix the bug. We've always tolerated a certain portion of society who finds the situation unacceptable, but don't you suspect that things will change if that portion is most of us? Maybe we're not there yet, idk, but the article is about the unease vs the data, and I think the unease comes from the awareness that that's where we're headed.
- BrenBarn 1y ago
  I don't think that's necessarily what money is, but it is kind of what sufficiently unregulated capitalism is, which is what we've had for a while now.
- johnnyanmac 1y ago
  >Isn't that what money is though If you're only raised in a grifter's society, sure. Money is to be conquered and extracted. But we came definetly shift back to a society where money is one to help keep the boat afloat for everyone to pursue their own interests, and not a losing game of Monopoly where the rich get richer.

brooke2k 1y ago

> it might mean going out of business for ideological reasons taking a moral stance isn't inherently ideological

ryanmcbride 1y ago

Sometimes companies become irrelevant while following the market, while other companies revolutionize the market by NOT following it. It's not "swim with the tide or die", it's "float like a corpse down the river, or swim". Which direction you swim in will certainly be a different level of effort, and you can end up as a corpse no matter what, but that doesn't mean the only option you have is to give up.

tenacious_tuna 1y ago

I was talking to a friend of mine about a related topic when he quipped that he realized he started disliking therapy when he realized they effectively were just teaching him coping strategies for an economic system that is inherently amoral. > So practically speaking, the options are follow the market or find a different line of work if you don’t like the way the market is going. You're correct in this, but I think it's worth making the explicit statement that that's also true because we live in a system of amoral resource allocation. Yes, this is a forum centered on startups, so there's a certain economic bias at play, but on the subject of morality I think there's a fair case to be made that it's reasonable to want to oppose an inherently unjust system and to be frustrated that doing so makes survival difficult. We shouldn't have to choose between principles and food on the table.

jfil 1y ago
> We shouldn't have to choose between principles and food on the table. I am increasingly convinced that these are the only true kind of ethical decision. Painless/straightforward ethical decisions that you make every day - they probably don't even register on your radar. But a tough tradeoff does.

jayd16 1y ago

By not following the market you change the market.

johnnyanmac 1y ago

>the options are follow the market or find a different line of work if you don’t like the way the market is going You can also just outlive the irrationality. If we could stop beating around the bush and admit we're in a recession, that would explain a lot of things. You just gotta bear the storm. It's way too late to jump on the AI train anyway. Maybe one more year, but I'd be surprised if that bubble doesn't pop by the end of 2027.