6 ms·

Very concerning. I will be suprised if companies like apple comply though.

by qwerty59 10mo ago

goku12 10mo ago
As concerning as it is, this is just another addition to the pile of malware that a modern smartphone is. Everyone including SoC manufacturer, RF baseband manufacturer, OEM, OS developer, browser developer and app developers add their own opaque blobs, hidden executable rings, lockdown measures, attestation layers, telemetry, trojan apps, hidden permissions and more. We lost the game when we allowed these players to impose limits on us in the way we can use the device that we bought with our hard earned money. Even modifying the root image of these OSes is treated like some sort of criminal activity. And there are enough people around ready to gaslight us with the stories about grandma's security, RF regulations, etc. Yet, its the extensive custom mods like Lineage OS that offer any form of security. Their extensive lockdown only leads to higher usage costs and a mountain of malware. We really need to demand control over our own devices. We should fight to outlaw any restrictions on the ways we can use our own devices. We should strongly condemn and shame the people who try to gaslight us for their greed and duplicity.
- nunobrito 10mo ago
  Good to see someone well-informed. There is a lot being on that topic, you are not alone.
  - goku12 10mo ago
    Thank you for your kind words and solidarity! Those who understand this should definitely take a public stance, because we're far too apathetic towards such exploitation. It's even more disturbing to see some people supporting measures like these!
- deleted 10mo ago
  [deleted]
- charlie-83 10mo ago
  I completely agree with you but I'm not sure I can really think of a solution for the RF baseband problem. I really don't want to live in a world where everyone's wifi signal is terrible because lots of stupid software devs decided to boost the RF power for their product to make it work better.
  - goku12 10mo ago
    Yes. That thought did cross my mind. However, the RF baseband is an independent opaque blackbox already. As far as I know, it even includes an entire hidden operating system. But opening up the rest of the system, leaving the BB as it is, will go a long way to an open user-controlled system. We could adopt that as a stop gap measure until a longer term solution is found. In the longer term however, we will need such a restriction on RF BB lifted too. Openness isn't just about modifiability. It's essential for security too. I'm someone who believes that security and granular restrictions can be implemented without being hostile towards users. This is why I don't buy Apple's argument that hardware lockdown measures like soldering on batteries, permanently gluing up ICs, etc are essential for miniaturization and security. One solution for the problem you mentioned (devs over-boosting the RF output) is to have a one-time programmable power limiter after one of the final fixed-gain RF power amplifiers. (An example of a one-time programmable device is an anti-fuse FPGA). Such a baseband can be programmed to conform to the market country's regulations (or something even stricter) before assembly. This way, the developer can boost the signal as much as they want, but the device simply won't respond beyond the permissible limit. Of course, all these are daydreams, because it has to be implemented by the baseband manufacturer. Unfortunately, their incentives don't align with our interests.
- hurutparittya 10mo ago
  Is there any person or organization out there doing significant work against remote attestation being a thing? I'd love to support them.
alephnerd 10mo ago
> I will be suprised if companies like apple comply though They will. All tech companies already comply with India's IT Act. And India now manufactures 44% of all iPhones sold in the US [0] while dangling the stick of a $38B anti-trust fine [6] but also the carrot of implementing China-style labor laws [10] that Apple lobbied for [11], so Apple doesn't have much of a choice because both China and Vietnam (the primary competitors for this segment of manufacturing) have similar regulations while not shielding them from Chinese competitors. Samsung is in the same boat at 25% of their manufacturing globally being done in India in CY24 [1] while is also trying to further entrench itself [2][8][9] due to existential competition from Chinese vendors [3][7]. Heck, Apple complied with similar regulations in Russia [7] before the Ukraine War despite being a smaller market than India with no Apple manufacturing, engineering, or capex presence. All large companies who face existential threats from Chinese competitors have no choice but to entrench in India as it's the only large market with barriers against direct Chinese competition - ASEAN has an expansive FTA with China which has lead both South Korea, Japan, and Taiwan to lose their staying power in countries like Vietnam, Indonesia, and Thailand where Chinese competitors are being given the red carpet, and Brazil is in the process of one as well. And the Indian government is taking full advantage of this to get large companies to bend to Indian laws, as can be seen with the damocles sword of tax enforcement on Volkswagen [4] while negotiating an FTA with the EU and a potential $38B anti-trust fine against Apple [5] while negotiating a BTA with the US. It's the same playbook China used when it was in India's current position in the late 2000s and early 2010s. Finally, India was in a de facto war earlier this year against Pakistan (Chinese manufactured missiles landed near my ancestral home along with plenty of Turkish and Chinese drones) along with a suicide bombing in India's Tiannamen Square (the Red Fort) a couple weeks ago [12], so anything national security has a bit more credence and leeway. [0] - https://scw-mag.com/news/apples-supply-shift-to-india-speeds-up-to-44-surpassing-china-for-the-first-time/ https://scw-mag.com/news/apples-supply-shift-to-india-speeds... [1] - https://www.techinasia.com/news/samsung-to-broaden-manufacturing-portfolio-in-india-minister https://www.techinasia.com/news/samsung-to-broaden-manufactu... [2] - https://www.chosun.com/english/industry-en/2025/11/25/SLEYWTPTVRHBPPYPCNNEAP6CDQ/ https://www.chosun.com/english/industry-en/2025/11/25/SLEYWT... [3] - https://www.digitimes.com/news/a20251118VL205/2030-samsung-sk-hynix-dram-ymtc.html https://www.digitimes.com/news/a20251118VL205/2030-samsung-s... [4] - https://www.ft.com/content/6ec91d4a-2f37-4a01-9132-6c7ae5b06d5d https://www.ft.com/content/6ec91d4a-2f37-4a01-9132-6c7ae5b06... [5] - https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/boards-policy-regulation/apple-contests-indias-antitrust-penalty-law-with-risk-38-billion-fine-filing-2025-11-26/ https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/boards-policy-regulat... [6] - https://www.macrumors.com/2021/03/16/apple-to-offer-government-approved-apps-russia/ https://www.macrumors.com/2021/03/16/apple-to-offer-governme... [7] - https://www.businesskorea.co.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=235998 https://www.businesskorea.co.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=... [8] - https://www.digitimes.com/news/a20250903PD208/samsung-india-investment.html https://www.digitimes.com/news/a20250903PD208/samsung-india-... [9] - https://www.digitimes.com/news/a20241212PR200/samsung-india-education-semiconductors-design.html https://www.digitimes.com/news/a20241212PR200/samsung-india-... [10] - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-11-21/india-implements-overhauled-labor-laws-to-attract-more-investors https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-11-21/india-imp... [11] - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-03-21/apple-seeks-india-labor-reform-in-push-to-diversify-beyond-china https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-03-21/apple-see... [12] - https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/india-intensifies-crackdown-disputed-kashmir-after-new-delhi-127883576 https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/india-intensi...
embedding-shape 10mo ago
Do they actually have a choice? Usually with laws and orders from the government, you can't do much than either go with the flow, try to lobby against it afterwards, or straight up refuse and leave the market. Considering Apple's ties to India, I feel like Apple is unlikely to leave, so that really only leaves Apple with the first; comply and complain.
- JumpCrisscross 10mo ago
  > Do they actually have a choice? Yes. Apple's revenues are half as much as the government of India's [1][2]. That's a resource advantage that gives Cupertino real leverage against New Delhi. [1] https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2025/10/apple-reports-fourth-quarter-results/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2025/10/apple-reports-fourth-... $102.5bn / quarter [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_government_budget https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_governmen... $827bn / year
  - jonplackett 10mo ago
    Apple need India though. They’re moving a lot of their manufacturing there to derisk from a China. Also, they gave in to the CCP and always say ‘we obey the laws of the countries in which we operate’. Apple is, at the end of the day, just a business.
    - JumpCrisscross 10mo ago
      > Apple need India though. They’re moving a lot of their manufacturing there to derisk from a China That creates obligations both ways. Put another way, Apple is an increasingly-major employer in India. The real carrot New Delhi has is its growing middle class. The real carrot Apple has is its aspirational branding. > they gave in to the CCP and always say ‘we obey the laws of the countries in which we operate' Apple regularly negotiates and occasionally openly fights laws its disagrees with. This would be no different. Cupertino is anything but lazy and nihilistic. Mandated installation opens a door they've fought hard to keep shut because it carries global precedent.
brendoelfrendo 10mo ago
Why wouldn't they? If Apple doesn't comply, the Indian government could force them to withdraw from the market or otherwise make their lives difficult. I can't see Apple or their shareholders caring about privacy enough to abandon such a large market.
fsflover 10mo ago
You shouldn't be: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26644216 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26644216
GuinansEyebrows 10mo ago
have you seen what Tim Apple has been up to lately with his own government?
hsuduebc2 10mo ago
They are doing this for US from the beginning so it is only matter of time or carefully applied pressure. This is only a PR.

Very concerning. I will be suprised if companies like apple comply though.

goku12 10mo ago

As concerning as it is, this is just another addition to the pile of malware that a modern smartphone is. Everyone including SoC manufacturer, RF baseband manufacturer, OEM, OS developer, browser developer and app developers add their own opaque blobs, hidden executable rings, lockdown measures, attestation layers, telemetry, trojan apps, hidden permissions and more. We lost the game when we allowed these players to impose limits on us in the way we can use the device that we bought with our hard earned money. Even modifying the root image of these OSes is treated like some sort of criminal activity. And there are enough people around ready to gaslight us with the stories about grandma's security, RF regulations, etc. Yet, its the extensive custom mods like Lineage OS that offer any form of security. Their extensive lockdown only leads to higher usage costs and a mountain of malware. We really need to demand control over our own devices. We should fight to outlaw any restrictions on the ways we can use our own devices. We should strongly condemn and shame the people who try to gaslight us for their greed and duplicity.

nunobrito 10mo ago
Good to see someone well-informed. There is a lot being on that topic, you are not alone.
- goku12 10mo ago
  Thank you for your kind words and solidarity! Those who understand this should definitely take a public stance, because we're far too apathetic towards such exploitation. It's even more disturbing to see some people supporting measures like these!
deleted 10mo ago
[deleted]
charlie-83 10mo ago
I completely agree with you but I'm not sure I can really think of a solution for the RF baseband problem. I really don't want to live in a world where everyone's wifi signal is terrible because lots of stupid software devs decided to boost the RF power for their product to make it work better.
- goku12 10mo ago
  Yes. That thought did cross my mind. However, the RF baseband is an independent opaque blackbox already. As far as I know, it even includes an entire hidden operating system. But opening up the rest of the system, leaving the BB as it is, will go a long way to an open user-controlled system. We could adopt that as a stop gap measure until a longer term solution is found. In the longer term however, we will need such a restriction on RF BB lifted too. Openness isn't just about modifiability. It's essential for security too. I'm someone who believes that security and granular restrictions can be implemented without being hostile towards users. This is why I don't buy Apple's argument that hardware lockdown measures like soldering on batteries, permanently gluing up ICs, etc are essential for miniaturization and security. One solution for the problem you mentioned (devs over-boosting the RF output) is to have a one-time programmable power limiter after one of the final fixed-gain RF power amplifiers. (An example of a one-time programmable device is an anti-fuse FPGA). Such a baseband can be programmed to conform to the market country's regulations (or something even stricter) before assembly. This way, the developer can boost the signal as much as they want, but the device simply won't respond beyond the permissible limit. Of course, all these are daydreams, because it has to be implemented by the baseband manufacturer. Unfortunately, their incentives don't align with our interests.
hurutparittya 10mo ago
Is there any person or organization out there doing significant work against remote attestation being a thing? I'd love to support them.

alephnerd 10mo ago

> I will be suprised if companies like apple comply though They will. All tech companies already comply with India's IT Act. And India now manufactures 44% of all iPhones sold in the US [0] while dangling the stick of a $38B anti-trust fine [6] but also the carrot of implementing China-style labor laws [10] that Apple lobbied for [11], so Apple doesn't have much of a choice because both China and Vietnam (the primary competitors for this segment of manufacturing) have similar regulations while not shielding them from Chinese competitors. Samsung is in the same boat at 25% of their manufacturing globally being done in India in CY24 [1] while is also trying to further entrench itself [2][8][9] due to existential competition from Chinese vendors [3][7]. Heck, Apple complied with similar regulations in Russia [7] before the Ukraine War despite being a smaller market than India with no Apple manufacturing, engineering, or capex presence. All large companies who face existential threats from Chinese competitors have no choice but to entrench in India as it's the only large market with barriers against direct Chinese competition - ASEAN has an expansive FTA with China which has lead both South Korea, Japan, and Taiwan to lose their staying power in countries like Vietnam, Indonesia, and Thailand where Chinese competitors are being given the red carpet, and Brazil is in the process of one as well. And the Indian government is taking full advantage of this to get large companies to bend to Indian laws, as can be seen with the damocles sword of tax enforcement on Volkswagen [4] while negotiating an FTA with the EU and a potential $38B anti-trust fine against Apple [5] while negotiating a BTA with the US. It's the same playbook China used when it was in India's current position in the late 2000s and early 2010s. Finally, India was in a de facto war earlier this year against Pakistan (Chinese manufactured missiles landed near my ancestral home along with plenty of Turkish and Chinese drones) along with a suicide bombing in India's Tiannamen Square (the Red Fort) a couple weeks ago [12], so anything national security has a bit more credence and leeway. [0] - https://scw-mag.com/news/apples-supply-shift-to-india-speeds-up-to-44-surpassing-china-for-the-first-time/ https://scw-mag.com/news/apples-supply-shift-to-india-speeds... [1] - https://www.techinasia.com/news/samsung-to-broaden-manufacturing-portfolio-in-india-minister https://www.techinasia.com/news/samsung-to-broaden-manufactu... [2] - https://www.chosun.com/english/industry-en/2025/11/25/SLEYWTPTVRHBPPYPCNNEAP6CDQ/ https://www.chosun.com/english/industry-en/2025/11/25/SLEYWT... [3] - https://www.digitimes.com/news/a20251118VL205/2030-samsung-sk-hynix-dram-ymtc.html https://www.digitimes.com/news/a20251118VL205/2030-samsung-s... [4] - https://www.ft.com/content/6ec91d4a-2f37-4a01-9132-6c7ae5b06d5d https://www.ft.com/content/6ec91d4a-2f37-4a01-9132-6c7ae5b06... [5] - https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/boards-policy-regulation/apple-contests-indias-antitrust-penalty-law-with-risk-38-billion-fine-filing-2025-11-26/ https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/boards-policy-regulat... [6] - https://www.macrumors.com/2021/03/16/apple-to-offer-government-approved-apps-russia/ https://www.macrumors.com/2021/03/16/apple-to-offer-governme... [7] - https://www.businesskorea.co.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=235998 https://www.businesskorea.co.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=... [8] - https://www.digitimes.com/news/a20250903PD208/samsung-india-investment.html https://www.digitimes.com/news/a20250903PD208/samsung-india-... [9] - https://www.digitimes.com/news/a20241212PR200/samsung-india-education-semiconductors-design.html https://www.digitimes.com/news/a20241212PR200/samsung-india-... [10] - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-11-21/india-implements-overhauled-labor-laws-to-attract-more-investors https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-11-21/india-imp... [11] - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-03-21/apple-seeks-india-labor-reform-in-push-to-diversify-beyond-china https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-03-21/apple-see... [12] - https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/india-intensifies-crackdown-disputed-kashmir-after-new-delhi-127883576 https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/india-intensi...

embedding-shape 10mo ago

Do they actually have a choice? Usually with laws and orders from the government, you can't do much than either go with the flow, try to lobby against it afterwards, or straight up refuse and leave the market. Considering Apple's ties to India, I feel like Apple is unlikely to leave, so that really only leaves Apple with the first; comply and complain.

JumpCrisscross 10mo ago
> Do they actually have a choice? Yes. Apple's revenues are half as much as the government of India's [1][2]. That's a resource advantage that gives Cupertino real leverage against New Delhi. [1] https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2025/10/apple-reports-fourth-quarter-results/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2025/10/apple-reports-fourth-... $102.5bn / quarter [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_government_budget https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_governmen... $827bn / year
- jonplackett 10mo ago
  Apple need India though. They’re moving a lot of their manufacturing there to derisk from a China. Also, they gave in to the CCP and always say ‘we obey the laws of the countries in which we operate’. Apple is, at the end of the day, just a business.
  - JumpCrisscross 10mo ago
    > Apple need India though. They’re moving a lot of their manufacturing there to derisk from a China That creates obligations both ways. Put another way, Apple is an increasingly-major employer in India. The real carrot New Delhi has is its growing middle class. The real carrot Apple has is its aspirational branding. > they gave in to the CCP and always say ‘we obey the laws of the countries in which we operate' Apple regularly negotiates and occasionally openly fights laws its disagrees with. This would be no different. Cupertino is anything but lazy and nihilistic. Mandated installation opens a door they've fought hard to keep shut because it carries global precedent.

brendoelfrendo 10mo ago

Why wouldn't they? If Apple doesn't comply, the Indian government could force them to withdraw from the market or otherwise make their lives difficult. I can't see Apple or their shareholders caring about privacy enough to abandon such a large market.

fsflover 10mo ago

You shouldn't be: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26644216 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26644216

GuinansEyebrows 10mo ago

have you seen what Tim Apple has been up to lately with his own government?

hsuduebc2 10mo ago

They are doing this for US from the beginning so it is only matter of time or carefully applied pressure. This is only a PR.