3 ms·

Being free of DEI (et. al.) is a good thing, it is just sad that something like that is a noteworthy policy. It comes down to stating that you don't care whethe

Being free of DEI (et. al.) is a good thing, it is just sad that something like that is a noteworthy policy. It comes down to stating that you don't care whether contributors happen to be left- or right-handed: well, duh, of course you don't care and it would be silly to insist on having 'equal handedness representation' as a policy for a project.

mort96 11mo ago
A community can not care whether contributors happen to be left- or right-handed. But if the community keeps making jokes about how left-handed people are inferior, there's probably not gonna be many left-handed people in the community. Or maybe the project's infrastructure or documentation is somehow more difficult to use for left-handed people, or assumes shared experiences that's common among right-handed people but which is foreign to most left-handed people. And since roughly 10% of the population is left-handed, if only 2% of your community is left-handed, it could be worthwhile to ask why. Maybe that difference is due to a broader societal issue, but maybe there's something about the community that repels left-handed people. Worth investigating, no?
- amiga386 11mo ago
  Ironically, X11 supports "diverse" people better than Wayland does. https://fireborn.mataroa.blog/blog/i-want-to-love-linux-it-doesnt-love-me-back-post-4-wayland-is-growing-up-and-now-we-dont-have-a-choice/ https://fireborn.mataroa.blog/blog/i-want-to-love-linux-it-d...
viraptor 11mo ago
So this is a funny example you brought up, especially in terms of a GUI related project. You know what a system like that should take into account? People with non-standard handedness! For that to happen, you may want diversity in at least your test team, and inclusivity for people with different or limited physical abilities. Because swapping the mouse buttons around or making different keyboard mappings useful and other accessibility features are often pushed by people who have some real life experience with diverse population. For good design, X should explicitly look for various ways people differ and how to include them in ways appropriate to their situation.
- hagbard_c 11mo ago
  Nope, I do not want the UI to be tailored to left-handed people, I want it to abide by whatever standards there are so I know where to find whatever element I happen to need. I'll learn how to use the right-handed version because that is what I will be confronted with in this right-handed world. I'm in the minority and I don't expect the world to accommodate me. I'm left-handed and I will use whatever tools I can get my hands on to the fullest of my ability. Accessibility is a different matter, not related to handedness - being left-handed is not considered to be a handicap. Adding accessibility features does not mean the team needs to include people with whatever handicap those features are tailored to though, they just need to gather enough input from people who need these features so they know what to implement. This does not mean the team should not include someone who happens to be blind (etc.), if that person is willing and able to contribute he's as welcome as anyone else.
  - viraptor 11mo ago
    > Nope, I do not want the UI to be tailored to left-handed people > I'm left-handed and I will use whatever tools I can get my hands on to the fullest of my ability. I'm not sure I can get you to look beyond what you yourself can do, but try to consider these groups: older people who will not learn precise right hand movement anymore, people with temporary or permanent right hand injury, people with no right hand, people with missing right hand fingers, etc. And consider what do you actually lose from your side if the UI can be tailored to dominant-left-hand usage.
    - zzo38computer 11mo ago
      > but try to consider these groups: older people who will not learn precise right hand movement anymore, people with temporary or permanent right hand injury, people with no right hand, people with missing right hand fingers, etc. Perhaps, but that does not seem to be a software issue, at least, not a software issue with the X window system itself. If you want to consider such things, it is probably more important if someone who is concerned about such things wants to design hardware specifically for such people. Allowing you as long as you want to type something instead of adding a time limit can be helpful for such people (since having less fingers or only one hand might make it take longer to type) but it can also be helpful for any other people for whatever reason (e.g. you have to answer the telephone before continuing to type on the computer, etc). Accessibility features are for everyone.
NaomiLehman 11mo ago
et al. should refer to people, not things "It comes down to stating that you don't care whether contributors happen to be left- or right-handed: well, duh, of course you don't care and it would be silly to insist on having 'equal handedness representation' as a policy for a project." that's how DEI works in X11?

mort96 11mo ago

A community can not care whether contributors happen to be left- or right-handed. But if the community keeps making jokes about how left-handed people are inferior, there's probably not gonna be many left-handed people in the community. Or maybe the project's infrastructure or documentation is somehow more difficult to use for left-handed people, or assumes shared experiences that's common among right-handed people but which is foreign to most left-handed people. And since roughly 10% of the population is left-handed, if only 2% of your community is left-handed, it could be worthwhile to ask why. Maybe that difference is due to a broader societal issue, but maybe there's something about the community that repels left-handed people. Worth investigating, no?

amiga386 11mo ago
Ironically, X11 supports "diverse" people better than Wayland does. https://fireborn.mataroa.blog/blog/i-want-to-love-linux-it-doesnt-love-me-back-post-4-wayland-is-growing-up-and-now-we-dont-have-a-choice/ https://fireborn.mataroa.blog/blog/i-want-to-love-linux-it-d...

viraptor 11mo ago

So this is a funny example you brought up, especially in terms of a GUI related project. You know what a system like that should take into account? People with non-standard handedness! For that to happen, you may want diversity in at least your test team, and inclusivity for people with different or limited physical abilities. Because swapping the mouse buttons around or making different keyboard mappings useful and other accessibility features are often pushed by people who have some real life experience with diverse population. For good design, X should explicitly look for various ways people differ and how to include them in ways appropriate to their situation.

hagbard_c 11mo ago
Nope, I do not want the UI to be tailored to left-handed people, I want it to abide by whatever standards there are so I know where to find whatever element I happen to need. I'll learn how to use the right-handed version because that is what I will be confronted with in this right-handed world. I'm in the minority and I don't expect the world to accommodate me. I'm left-handed and I will use whatever tools I can get my hands on to the fullest of my ability. Accessibility is a different matter, not related to handedness - being left-handed is not considered to be a handicap. Adding accessibility features does not mean the team needs to include people with whatever handicap those features are tailored to though, they just need to gather enough input from people who need these features so they know what to implement. This does not mean the team should not include someone who happens to be blind (etc.), if that person is willing and able to contribute he's as welcome as anyone else.
- viraptor 11mo ago
  > Nope, I do not want the UI to be tailored to left-handed people > I'm left-handed and I will use whatever tools I can get my hands on to the fullest of my ability. I'm not sure I can get you to look beyond what you yourself can do, but try to consider these groups: older people who will not learn precise right hand movement anymore, people with temporary or permanent right hand injury, people with no right hand, people with missing right hand fingers, etc. And consider what do you actually lose from your side if the UI can be tailored to dominant-left-hand usage.
  - zzo38computer 11mo ago
    > but try to consider these groups: older people who will not learn precise right hand movement anymore, people with temporary or permanent right hand injury, people with no right hand, people with missing right hand fingers, etc. Perhaps, but that does not seem to be a software issue, at least, not a software issue with the X window system itself. If you want to consider such things, it is probably more important if someone who is concerned about such things wants to design hardware specifically for such people. Allowing you as long as you want to type something instead of adding a time limit can be helpful for such people (since having less fingers or only one hand might make it take longer to type) but it can also be helpful for any other people for whatever reason (e.g. you have to answer the telephone before continuing to type on the computer, etc). Accessibility features are for everyone.

NaomiLehman 11mo ago

et al. should refer to people, not things "It comes down to stating that you don't care whether contributors happen to be left- or right-handed: well, duh, of course you don't care and it would be silly to insist on having 'equal handedness representation' as a policy for a project." that's how DEI works in X11?