10 ms·

Self-hosting a Matrix server for 5 years

262 points by the-anarchist 10mo ago

ekjhgkejhgk 10mo ago
And I thought that XMPP felt broken...
- a3w 10mo ago
  Now you can feel twice as broken. That is what new, modern standards deliver. Is this part of XCD #927 or another one, too?
  - ekjhgkejhgk 10mo ago
    XMPP is 26 years old, Matrix is 11 years old.
- Jnr 10mo ago
  XMPP felt great when compared to Matrix. Matrix was in a bad state some years ago when I hosted it for a while, and seems like it still is the same messy state. I avoid it as much as possible but for some reason there are communities using it. At this point it should just die so people would be motivated to replace it with something better.
  - tcfhgj 10mo ago
    People are motivated to replace it with something better, it's called Matrix 2.0.
    - Orygin 10mo ago
      Do they plan to fix the fundamental issues of Matrix in 2.0 or should I wait for 3.0?
      - tcfhgj 10mo ago
        you could be less vague
        Orygin 10mo ago
        I could, that's why the link has a few more words about the issues with matrix.
        tcfhgj 10mo ago
        Great, even less vague nw - will get you an answer, not.
    - Jnr 10mo ago
      I tried it a year ago when it was introduced, it did not work. Is it stable now?
      - tcfhgj 10mo ago
        Matrix 2.0? Not quite yet, but it was promised that the next release will be Matrix 2.0
        Jnr 10mo ago
        I guess it was the Element X client that was advertised as Matrix 2.0 client and that did not work.
        tcfhgj 10mo ago
        It does (now), been using it daily for months now
    - this_user 10mo ago
      Which perfectly fits the Matrix ethos of everything constantly being rewritten or replaced with something new that only implements half the features before the original thing is ever finished.
      - tcfhgj 10mo ago
        I like this more than sticking to things you know you won't be happy with.
      - oblio 10mo ago
        https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html Copy-paste the link, otherwise the Easter egg might be offensive to some :-D
  - bigstrat2003 10mo ago
    > I avoid it as much as possible but for some reason there are communities using it. The "for some reason", at least for my group, is because it's rock solid for us. We have no reason to want to change, so of course we are using it.
- aidenn0 10mo ago
  I've had only one issue with ejabberd (didn't read the docs close enough and had to move from mnesia to sql when I hit the size limit) in over a decade of self-hosting it. Knowing which XEPs you actually want is a bit of a pain, but has gotten easier. Now I usually just periodically look at the current prosody example[1] which lists extensions by "essential" "recommended" "nice to have" and "other" and it's easy enough to find the matching modules for ejabberd. 1: https://prosody.im/doc/example_config https://prosody.im/doc/example_config
  - MattJ100 10mo ago
    Prosody dev here. Good to know this is useful :) One of my favourite small features we added in the latest release is a 'prosodyctl check features' command which will validate that your configuration is up to date with current best practices in various ways. Although we like to curate the default configuration with care, people tend to keep their existing configuration file when they upgrade (we generally recommend this, as we aim for backwards compatibility). The new command makes it easier for folk who upgrade to ensure they are still getting the expected experience as the recommendations evolve. Obviously that has to be somewhat opinionated. One thing many people appreciate about Prosody is that you can customize it however you want to, even if it's not following the mainstream. E.g. if you really don't care about synchronizing to multiple devices, you can totally disable that message cache. Don't need audio/video calls? Fine!
jimkleiber 10mo ago
As someone who has looked into forking Matrix for a new type of chat service, I'm grateful to see a more in-depth look at running it behind the scenes. Thank you.
nehal3m 10mo ago
I’ve been running a Matrix server for about two years on a Proxmox host in a colo I rent for the purpose (plus some other hobby stuff, but mainly because I just think it’s cool). This playbook is awesome and it’s pretty easy to set up and keep running: https://github.com/spantaleev/matrix-docker-ansible-deploy https://github.com/spantaleev/matrix-docker-ansible-deploy
pferde 10mo ago
Regarding the "Requires federation" section, that is not true. I've been running a small family-only homeserver for several years now, and had federation disabled on it from the very beginning, and there have been exactly zero issues related to (lack of) federation with it.
- wkat4242 10mo ago
  Same here, though you do still have to expose it to the internet unless you use a VPN. I'd prefer something with less of an attack service especially because bridges don't currently encrypt, but I host behind vpn now.
  - pferde 10mo ago
    That's not a fair criticism. Of course you need to expose the server to the network clients are going to be connecting from. Whether that is Internet or just a LAN, that's orthogonal to the protocol. I've also had an intra-company Matrix server running completely on a company internal LAN, with no Internet access, so there is no inherent need for it to be on The Internet.
    - wkat4242 10mo ago
      Yes but even for a web service the attack surface is pretty big. Lots of obscure URLs and the code isn't that clean either.
styanax 10mo ago
As a former user I felt these pain points trying to do nothing more than have a very active one-on-one chat with a good friend. Tens of messages an hour, maybe 2 years running. Using matrix.org and the pre-X clients. It's fine for group chat (IRC style) but that's not a high bar. (a) the encryption between using a mobile and the webapp desyncs/breaks all the time, it just sucks. I mean you'll get "cannot decrypt" a lot, have to bounce back and forth and generally try and force it to re-sync properly again. Sometimes never worked at all. Lots of issues on GH over the years. (b) as mentioned in this article, insane delays on new message notif and sending and receiving. Just logging in on the webapp every morning took minutes of some sort of mysterious sync process, often the mobile app had the same problems. The X stuff may fix this, we were pre-X. (c) cleanup. There's no message retention set on matrix.org, when I wanted to extract and remove our past chats the process and experience was excruciatingly bad. It took tens of hours over several weekends of the webapp (mobile completely non-op in practice for this) polling and loading old content, just so I could select 100 at a time to delete and then it took an hour. Once I started culling back over a year or so, the loading got longer and longer and longer, until eventually it 100% stopped working at all to load old messages. Signal and DeltaChat are far, far better experiences for one-on-one chats with friends & family. The Delta client is a bit UI/UX behind but not horrible; e.g. you can't correct a typo in a sent message in Delta, unlike Signal - because each msg is a unique gpg-encrypted "email" rather than a database object that can be re-manipulated.
- tcfhgj 10mo ago
  a) is really not a big issue any more b) yeah, X solves it (via sliding sync)
  - bronson 10mo ago
    a) As of when? I had a "cannot decrypt" room failure on matrix.org a year ago. b) Unfortunately, X breaks other important things, like audio/video calls. It currently feels like an alpha-quality release: buggy and lots of missing features. Not ready for widespread use.
    - 10mo ago
mcluck 10mo ago
I've tried off and on to actually use Matrix. I was a bit of a loud supporter in the early days. Unfortunately, it looks like it still hasn't grown past the fundamental issues I was having then. It might be time to try something else
- yaky 10mo ago
  What issues did you have / still have? When I started using Matrix, Riot.im did not get notifications in time, or was a battery hog. And Synapse took up a lot of memory, with occasional slowdowns. But then, circa 2022, Synapse improved and Element seems to have worked well and was consistent and reliable on all platforms.
  - mcluck 10mo ago
    That's exactly the sorts of issues I was having. That and it somehow kept losing my encryption information so I'd lose access to all of my messages or something similarly ridiculous
jchw 10mo ago
I've mentioned this here before, but it bears repeating. A couple years ago or so, I made the catastrophic choice to use Dendrite as my homeserver software. It seemed like a safe bet: it was supposedly lighter weight than Synapse, being written in Go instead of Python and with everything reengineered from the ground up. It didn't support everything, but nothing in the disclaimers made it seem like it was about to abruptly become defunded and essentially unmaintained. Alas, that's exactly what happened not too long after I made that choice. Despite showing no interest in maintaining it, New Vector still found it necessary to relicense their abandonware under the more restrictive AGPL license. Good priorities. Then, when a security patch was needed, a new release was rushed out that included not just a security fix, but also a bug that caused Dendrite to completely stop processing messages for minutes at a time multiple times a day. (This only got fixed months later by a volunteer.) Joining large federated rooms on Dendrite took so long that I thought it was just broken; it could take hours to days to complete the operation! There was even a brief period when Element actually didn't even support Dendrite, leaving everyone locked out. Dendrite has never supported Element X, and the old sliding sync proxy was never updated to support the new simplified sliding sync either, which means you're stuck with the old slow sync and no support for things that require it. Also, most appservers still don't work right on Dendrite either. I got Mautrix-Discord working, but only for DMs. I legitimately could go on and I'm sure I've forgotten things. It's amazing how quickly my experience with Dendrite went from pretty good to nightmare. I realized that nobody in charge at the Matrix Foundation or New Vector really cared enough about leaving people stranded on a completely broken server to actually do anything about it (and trust me, I'm not alone. In every single federated room I've ever been in, I've always seen hostnames with dendrite subdomains. I could see them pass by in the logs while joining servers was taking hours.) I honestly considered just leaving the Matrix ecosystem, but I wasn't alone on my home server, so I decided to do my best to fix the problem. I wrote a tool that attempts to migrate the data from Dendrite to Synapse. This is a complicated operation that really took a huge amount of effort to get working, but after a couple of months of failed attempts, I had a test where I was able to seamlessly perform the migration and have clients continue to work and stay in federated rooms. So after getting it "close enough", I went ahead and gave the migration a shot in production and of course, it didn't work very well. All of the user accounts were intact, but a lot of stuff was broken. People indeed stayed in federated rooms, but my room state migration was definitely not 100% correct. Despite this, though, after manually cleaning up the database a bit more, hackishly while live, it was mostly a success. I believe I am probably the first person to directly move from Dendrite to Synapse. So now that I am on Synapse, have my thoughts on Matrix changed? Yes. It's significantly better using Synapse, without question. The ecosystem is still a mess, but everything about Synapse is less broken than Dendrite. There are so many features Dendrite just doesn't do, like URL previews. Why not contribute to Dendrite? Honestly, I don't want to. Their CLA sucks and they're not going to change it for me, and I don't think they're really going to spend time reviewing PRs given the circumstances. If I'm going to contribute to a project without retaining my rights I'd prefer to be on payroll. That's not something you should get from a community member. Either change the CLA to guarantee the project must stay open, or don't expect any free contributions. Why not post my migration tool? Well honestly, for starters, it's not a very high quality tool. I could probably do some good for the Matrix ecosystem if I could get this tool in much better shape and have it migrating complex room states correctly, but I don't even know if I want to help anyways. This should've never been my problem. I will fully admit that it was my bad choice that got me here, but I really think it can be forgiven: nothing I saw suggested to me that Dendrite was on the way out. On the contrary, everything suggested it was the future, and just simply not ready for large scale usage yet. I'm bitter. I spent a lot of hours on this problem and I feel like hours spent on the Matrix ecosystem won't be repaid. I hate to be this cynical, but it's just how it is. It's a mess. I didn't bother going into the other messes that still exist when using Synapse, like the seemingly many different ways that VoIP can work in Element and Element X, and the fact that Element X seems to only support a newer VoIP protocol that Element on desktop does not. (Surprise! There is no Element X on desktop...) Matrix has some other downsides, that I think are tolerable but definitely make me a bit bummed. It leaks quite a lot of metadata to the homeservers, which is kind of alright, but I do think it's a bit sad; even room names are not encrypted, clearly it would be possible to do better. The ecosystem of clients is sad; Element is the only one that is feature complete and while I think it has improved quite a lot I still would prefer a native application over a web view. (You kind of need a webview if you want feature parity though, since group A/V in Element desktop seems to just use a Jitsi iframe...) The upside is that it is federated and at least messages and files are E2EE in DMs and optionally for groups. I do like that. Personally though the federation thing feels a bit off to me. I know it's a pipe dream, but it just feels like 1-on-1 and small group DMs should be roughly peer-to-peer. Servers should be for chatrooms and relays. The problems I see are mobile notifications, offline messaging, and discovery. I have wondered if a model like AT proto could get you there for DMs. I would like to try to prototype something some day, but I know that at this point the XKCD 927 count for IM software is pretty insane, so if I'm going to throw my hat into the ring it better be worth it. Maybe some day I will be less bitter. I mean, Matrix is free, how much can I really be angry if it didn't work how I wanted it to. But, it's hard. I tried to buy in hard, and wound up making a lot of trouble for me and a small group of people that I inadvertently looped into my own mess. I trusted Matrix because it seemed to be the leading option, but definitely I will now be much, much more careful before adopting an ecosystem into my life and the life of people around me. For example, I still have no ActivityPub server... Maybe it's better if I just wait and see what happens there before jumping in, if I'm going to.
maelito 10mo ago
I've been using Matrix for several years as a user. It works great. The problems decrypting messages have gone. X is becoming a good client. I'm deleting my whatsapp and télégram accounts in a few weeks after a painful week-long backup... Edit : I wonder how easy it is to backup a Matrix accounts's data. Conversations and files.
- BrenBarn 10mo ago
  > I wonder how easy it is to backup a Matrix accounts's data. Conversations and files. Not as easy as you might hope. The Element client has an export feature, but you have to manually activate it on each room/chat, and the export has a size cap so it may not work if you have lots of files you want to save. It's also pretty slow if the room has a lot of history. You could also try using something like Matrix Commander (a command-line client), but I couldn't get that to work fully either.
Almondsetat 10mo ago
>this also creates a situation where anything said across federation cannot be unsaid, which is an ironic situation for a protocol/system that often comes up when talking about privacy. How is it ironic? No protocol in the world can force anyone to delete anything from their own device. Chat apps that implement this function are either proprietary (so you cannot control what they can do) or, if OSS, do it on a pinky-promise-basis.
- a3w 10mo ago
  Right, but we did have efforts to take over hardware security enclaves to deliver user data, instead of copyrighted company data, to user devices. Tim Berners-Lee tries to make the internet a place where you can choose, what it "forgets". At least that were the news I got from the 2010s and early 2020s. As for how: DRM-like tech in the hands of users should allow for that. So having privacy by design would be nice, and e.g. many messengers try to do "it is inconvenient to copy a message that someone send you that is marked as view-only-once-or-up-to-a-timespan, but of course, you can use an external camera, i.e. make more low-fidelity copies or even exfiltrate data". Even F/LOS software can use/would be forced to use these proprietary enclaves or at least non-user accessible key stores. (As far as I understand hardware level DRM.)
  - Almondsetat 10mo ago
    >Tim Berners-Lee tries to make the internet a place where you can choose, what it "forgets". At least that were the news I got from the 2010s and early 2020s. Tim Berners-Lee created the web, not the internet, which is what chat apps use. Also, unless you can provide some direct quotes about it being designed for "forgetting" stuff, I have no idea where these "news" you got came from. >As for how: DRM-like tech in the hands of users should allow for that. If it's in the hands of the users, i.e. open source, it can be disabled at any moment, which is exactly what my reply already addressed.
    - everforward 10mo ago
      I think they're talking about Solid, Tim Berners-Lee's newer venture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_(web_decentralization_project) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_(web_decentralization_pr...
24t 10mo ago
To add another data point, I've been hosting a (tiny) matrix server for a few months. I'm pretty comfortable with self-hosting using docker, so I opted not to use the ansible scripts in the hope that it'd keep my setup simpler and more maintainable. Somehow I didn't find any mentions of ESS until Synapse was already up and running, but Kubernetes would have been a dealbreaker for similar reasons. In this short time I've run a database migration (sqlite is the default, but MAS requires postgres), tried and failed to migrate to MAS (required to use Element X) and have lost a couple of days messing around with coturn and eturnal with nothing to show for it -- my calls still don't connect when NAT is involved. I have to tell new users to ignore the recommendations to install Element X until I get MAS working. There's a lot of room for foundational improvements here, even updating docs to point would-be server admins to the recommended setup du jour would help.
chrismorgan 10mo ago
> While technically, Synapse can work with a sqlite database (and which at first seems like an OK choice for having <10 users on the server), it WILL become corrupted I want to hear more about this. Is this because Synapse’s SQLite support is half-baked? What sort of corruption are we taking about?
- udev4096 10mo ago
  I use sqlite for synapse (since ~2 years) and I haven't noticed any corruption at all. I am in lot of rooms (20-30) with 1k-2k users in a lot of them and the db size is 8.8G currently
tony-john12 10mo ago
[dead]
lousken 10mo ago
Same setup here since 2017. Since then, RAM usage decreased by 60%. The admin panel is not something I'd need but it would be a nice-to-have. Started with postgres as I wouldn't go for anything else if I wanna use it for decades. It has 2.5GBs for 10users and I don't mind if it takes 10 or 20, that's something I expected. Never did a cleanup of anything, I just dumped the db and moved to OVH recently onto a new VPS with NVMe SSD, it flies. The fact that I cannot delete attachments that users delete is certainly my biggest irritation, 50GBs of stuff I am not sure if I can or cannot delete, but considering the size, I am just gonna bite the bullet, couple terabytes should not be a problem in 25 years. But this is def something I would love to see addressed sooner rather than later. It must be a pain even for the matrix.org server team. After moving to a better server I do not have issues with slow notification unless the phone is sleeping for longer period of time which is an android optimization (I'd assume). It is more reliable than teams at this point. One of my friends had issues but removing 15 old devices fixed the issue. As for element-x, I did call out "the another rewrite" issue especially with android and I do think it makes things worse. I still do not know how am I supposed to fix calling and video between old and new clients. For now I don't bother with new clients and everyone is using old ones, but it starts to become an issue as classic clients are in maintenance only mode
- 0x1ch 10mo ago
  Whatever is going on in Matrix land isn't stable enough for most people to switch. I gave up after they broke their calling system after changing something to this livekit system. It doesn't work, my existing TURN server became useless, and Matrix was left as a very slow chat application. I'm over it.
  - lousken 10mo ago
    I don't plan to give up just yet. Switching is way too difficult and I don't see many platforms having both solid desktop and mobile versions with e2ee. But if they dare rewriting anything again from scratch I am leaving. They MUST stick with what they have and make it good at this point.
    - 10mo ago
nonamesleft 10mo ago
Ran synapse for a few months, figured out all the tui clients are either abandonware or broken (originally thought i could use bitlbee, and did the install before realizing it was unusable). Looked at current tui offerings now some years later, situation seems to be unchanged, the only client that ran back then was gomuks, and that has received a rewrite that hasn't reached feature parity yet. I am probably the type of person referred to in the last part of xkcd 1782.
- Arathorn 10mo ago
  iamb is pretty good and not abandonware, fwiw: https://github.com/ulyssa/iamb https://github.com/ulyssa/iamb
df0b9f169d54 10mo ago
OT: I have some very big groups in Telegram (7 years or more, with a lot of pictures). Can Matrix (Rocketchat or alternatives) have similar storage features (with some migration scripts)? Thanks
udev4096 10mo ago
I have been hosting synapse for 2 years now and it's been a smooth sail. I don't recall having any major breaking changes, most updates are smooth. Element client itself is definitely PITA but it's getting better
Barathkanna 10mo ago
TLDR Self-hosting isn’t dying because people stopped caring. It’s dying because the complexity has gotten out of hand. This post highlights how something that used to be a fun, lightweight hobby has turned into a full-time maintenance burden. Systems like Matrix are powerful, but they’ve become so intricate that even skilled engineers struggle to run them reliably. The result is a slow drift back toward centralized platforms, not out of preference, but because convenience keeps winning over autonomy. It’s a reminder of the growing gap between the ideal of a user-owned internet and the realities of modern software.
- omnimus 10mo ago
  I would say it became much easier in recent years. docker-compose became defacto server "app install", any linux supports it. That includes GUI options like Truenas/Unraid and very nice admins like Dockge exist. The company behind matrix is aiming at huge scale servers but if you care about unfederated private instances you will find there are few much simpler "one binary" projects that can even use file based sqlite/rocksdb. Hosting those couldn't be simpler. You actually don't even need docker just systemd service and switch binary when updating.
  - Arathorn 10mo ago
    If you want a simple docker-compose for Matrix, you can always use https://github.com/element-hq/element-docker-demo https://github.com/element-hq/element-docker-demo. The reason Element ships ESS Community as kubernetes helm charts is simply so that the officially supported distro is as close as possible to the thing we have to support for the big govtech customers, where docker compose simply isn't going to cut it. Perversely, that means that ESS Community is pretty bulletproof (even if the scaling stuff is missing), but comes at the expense of having to run k8s.
- BrenBarn 10mo ago
  Yeah, I think this is true and it's unfortunate. I think it's one of the areas where what seemed like the plan for Matrix hasn't totally worked out in practice. And it's even just the intricacy of managing it; some of the problems are deeper in the design. When I started using it several years ago, it seemed their vision was a lot of people running a lot of small servers. But the full-replication nature of the protocol, plus the resource demands of the server software, make that kind of impractical. Even tech-oriented people may shy away if they find out the database could grow to tens of gigabytes, and Synapse is not exactly light on RAM or CPU either. Perhaps in the future if implementations improve some of this may get better, and it will become more feasible for small operators to run their own servers. But by that time it will be harder to build trust because too many people will have written it off as bloated or unstable. I think it would have been better to start lean and keep the system in more of a nerd niche until that process of evolution reached a later stage.
The_President 10mo ago
Ran a homeserver for 5 years on a minimal VPS and it worked fine. Upsides - works everywhere, self hosted, feature complete. Client software in the ecosystem mostly felt bloated, with the exception of NeoChat. By 2022 the clients could no longer call each other. Decommissioned it this year in favor of traditional XMPP which works fine and it's nice that notifications are appropriately processed, finally. Our team highly appreciates the work done in Matrix it's just unfortunate that the elephant in the room was never addressed at the start of the project, which is the need for a -simple- first-party administrative dashboard or tool to manage users, storage, and configuration. Without that core component, then you've got a layer of complexity between an admin and an audit which will increase likelihood of misconfiguration or resource management issues.
- Arathorn 10mo ago
  We did address the elephant eventually with https://github.com/element-hq/element-admin https://github.com/element-hq/element-admin a few months ago. In terms of VoIP interop - yes, one of the worst bits of Matrix is that the legacy 1:1 VoIP calling is not interoperable with MatrixRTC-based (multiparty) VoIP calling, but we ran out of time/cash to implement interop and instead focused on making MatrixRTC work well. (Does XMPP give you E2EE multiparty calling ooi?)
  - The_President 10mo ago
    Thank you Aaron for the direct response. Glad to see the central interface for administrative use. Haven't had the need to use the calling feature in a while. One of the hurdles with the Rust client on Fdroid was it was too new for the OS on the device it needed to be used on, but on iOS it was a performance improvement. One of the genius ideas behind Element was the ecosystem of clients services that attach to rooms, and in some cases XMPP does not reach those expectations. I do plan on a redeployment soon after creating a new technical scope for its use. I like what I can observe of the new admin interface. I hope it can come to include security and configuration check guidances to provide tools for admins of all skillsets to properly configure their servers, and related TURN-or-not and storage. Matrix is bigtime like XMPP - I don't think it's going anywhere anytime soon. Thankful for all that it has provided to our organizations.
jamesbelchamber 10mo ago
> The only thing that I don't really understand is the decision on data replication. If a user on server A joins a room on server B, recent room data is copied from server B to server A and then kept in sync on both servers. The idea here is that rooms are abstracted from servers and sort-of exist ephemerally. This has the advantage/disadvantage of making it hard for the underlying infrastructure to exert control over the hosted communities, and seems to have become a distinguishing feature of federation. My experience of Matrix as a possible replacement for Discord has led me to believe it's mostly a disadvantage since it leads to gross misalignments between the communities in top and the infrastructure providers underneath. I consider e.g. Discourse to be much healthier (although I would like to see an app for Discourse so that my Discourse communities behave more like Discord/Slack servers) and it's frustrating to me that there hasn't been a clear "Discourse for chat" emerge to replace Discord.
- toastal 10mo ago
  You could also try Movim. You could have a decentralized XMPP server with a client that support group calls as well as having posts like a forum folks can comment on.
  - jamesbelchamber 10mo ago
    There are a bunch of options out there (though I've never seen Movim - thanks, I'll check it out) but most communities seem either to be on Discord or Matrix (with a few still hanging on to IRC and a few others on Slack) - Discord being by far the best UX of the lot.
- octoberfranklin 10mo ago
  > The idea here is that rooms are abstracted from servers and sort-of exist ephemerally No, that's not even remotely true. In fact the opposite is true. The domain name of the server used to create the room is perpetually and permanently embedded in the room name and can't be changed, ever.
  - foresto 10mo ago
JadedBlueEyes 10mo ago
> Synapse is the only choice that supports bridges This is not true, at least today. Continuwuity, which is an alternative server implementation, and its predecessors support bridges very well.
- Youden 10mo ago
  I set up Whatsapp and Telegram bridges with Tuwunel today. The config file for mautrix-whatsapp indicates Dendrite should work as well so it seems just about every server implementation supports bridges?
  - jchw 10mo ago
    Former Dendrite user: Yes and no. Mautrix stuff does work with Dendrite, technically, but only partially. For Mautrix-Discord, I was able to get DMs mostly working, but only DMs: bridging servers just never really worked at all. I'm honestly not 100% sure why this is the case, but it's not worth worrying about Dendrite anymore. It is a dead-end server that never worked very well. Up until shortly before it was discontinued, none of the Mautrix bridges worked well enough to actually use.
Aurornis 10mo ago
> While technically, Synapse can work with a sqlite database (and which at first seems like an OK choice for having <10 users on the server), it WILL become corrupted. Does anyone have any more information on this? Running Postgres is not a big deal, but I would expect SQLite to be fine given how well it works in my experience.
- Arathorn 10mo ago
  I've not seen many corrupted sqlite databases, but because Synapse is not currently storage-efficient you can end up with some terrifying large (100GB+) sqlite databases which might as well be corrupted. We only ever supported sqlite for ease of tinkering; it was never intended to be used in production, and in retrospect supporting it at all was a mistake. In terms of synapse storage efficiency and how to improve it, folks may be interested in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5zAgVYBuGk&t=1851s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5zAgVYBuGk&t=1851s
- meatmanek 10mo ago
  I use sqlite for my 2-user server and haven't had any issues in the several years I've been running it. It's possible to corrupt a sqlite database file, but generally it shouldn't happen unless you're doing something weird with it. https://www.sqlite.org/howtocorrupt.html https://www.sqlite.org/howtocorrupt.html
- omnimus 10mo ago
  I've been running unfederated Matrix instance with sqlite for 10 years for 10-20 people some very active. In WAL mode sqlite is fine i am not sure why it would get corrupted. Few years ago we did a data/history wipe (i managed to migrate accounts) because we switched to conduit.rs with sqlite. I very much prefer conduit to synapse. I never had issue with sqlite it was mostly Synapse. With recent changes i think they are completely dropping the ball on small instances and it feels like the ecosystem is splitting. Element X is just not very good. It seems to exist to kill classic element and since for element x you need some server features that not all alternative synapse servers support.
Arathorn 10mo ago
There's a bunch of outdated info in here, unfortunately: > Does not have an admin panel The admin panel is at https://github.com/element-hq/element-admin https://github.com/element-hq/element-admin (but it's relatively new, so many folks haven't noticed it exists) > No image captions > > This is silly, but while (official?) bridges support image captions, official Element app does not. Element Web & X support captions. (Element Web doesn't currently support authoring them, but can display them - obviuosly this is on the todo list though). Element Classic has basically not been touched in 2.5 years, unfortunately, and so yes - doesn't support them. But at this point the old app is just not being developed; we don't have bandwidth to do both. > Slow notifications This sounds like it might be overloaded server problems ftr. > Element X is Slower > Somehow, it is slower. Clicking on a conversation takes 0.5-1.0 seconds to load it, compared to almost instant load on Classic. This was an Android specific bug which was fixed a few weeks ago; EXA should now be instant as it should be, at least on nightlies: it was stuff surrounding https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-rust-sdk/pull/5841 https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-rust-sdk/pull/5841 and https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-rust-sdk/pull/5854 https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-rust-sdk/pull/5854. Unsure if the fix has made it into a build yet. EDIT: the fix shipped in stable Element X Android a few weeks ago. > Conversations are sorted by... who knows. It is not recent nor alphabetical. It should be by recency. > Onboarding is bad Sorry, but you have to run an auth server (matrix-authentication-service) if you want Element X to work. EDIT: if i've got any of the above wrong please just say, rather than downvote :D
- lousken 10mo ago
  > The admin panel is at https://github.com/element-hq/element-admin https://github.com/element-hq/element-admin I think author uses regular synapse install and there is no apt package for element-admin, manual build would be required with no update process. > Element Web & X support captions - i think this is honestly the worst of both worlds if app_old has features A,B,C,D and app_new has A,C,D,E it frustrates both groups of users. Which app are you actually supposed to use? Having feature parity with the old app is essential before moving on with newer features. And I am still waiting for that to tell people to switch.
- bronson 10mo ago
alexnewman 10mo ago
I've been developing open source code for over 25 years. i've deployed hugely complicated systems like hadoop. I've never seen anything as hard to run as this + the bridges.
pelzatessa 10mo ago
Been selfhosting synapse for about 1.5 years in a docker compose setup using bunkerweb (formerly "bunkerized nginx", which better explains it premise) reverse proxy, eturnal for TURN and postgres, also recently added livekit and MAS for element call and element X compatibility. All that runs on a small 2vcore/4gb VPS, and it runs pretty good, I experience a server crash every half a month, but that may be caused by the fact that bunkerweb isn't the most lightweight solution (they actually require 8GB RAM minimum, so I'm already beneath the limit), and also because I run some other software (mailserver, ebook server, plex, etc..). My experience as a administrator has been pretty good, perhaps it's because from the beginning I was optimistic, it suited my needs as I wanted a selfhosted, modern and fairly convenient communication platform. From what I recall, most problems during configuration were caused mostly by bunkerweb (or rather my inability to correctly set it up to proxy requests correctly and not hijack the 4xx and 5xx HTTP codes). Synapse itself has been a pleasure to maintain, but also bear in mind that I did not tinker with with it, I basically set it up and let it run for about a year and then added MAS and livekit. Yeah, disk usage sucks, for about 5-10 active users and 1.5 year usage my postgres "schemas" folder clocks at 10Gibs. It doesn't include the media_store catalog where synapse keeps media (images, videos). The homeserver is federated and I joined a couple of big rooms in the past. Mechanics mentioned in the links below do help though: https://matrix-org.github.io/synapse/v1.40/admin_api/purge_history_api.html https://matrix-org.github.io/synapse/v1.40/admin_api/purge_h... https://github.com/matrix-org/rust-synapse-compress-state https://github.com/matrix-org/rust-synapse-compress-state Clientwise also sucks, but I think enough has already been said on this matter. But it's good enough to keep my nontechnical friends using it. They do hate it, but not enough to kick me in the arse. Would love to say that this proves that element clientside is usable, but I also have to admit that my friends are just hella good guys who would even write pigeon mail to me if I stopped using anything else for communication :) for me as a techie, element is obviously alright. Clunky, but works. I think clients simply need more time. What irritates me is the Matrix authentication service (MAS), it's kind of a separate service for matrix homeservers that handles logins specifficaly. You can't use element X without it. However when it's enabled, you cannot log in from your client, instead a web browser opens and shows the login panel where you have to authorize, and then it should return to the client. Except in my case it simply doesn't :( I observed that for some reason chromium based browsers won't redirect back to the element app, and it doesn't know that the authorization has been granted. I managed to bypass it by copying the URL and opening it on firefox, but in one instance even that didn't work. But other than that MAS problems everything has been fine from administration standpoint. I think it simply needs more time, as it already has traction, I see that a lot of new projects seem to include a matrix room in their social/communication channels, frequently it's the only option besides the bugtracker. And I'm willing to wait patiently :) edit: added links for people who also struggle with disk space usage
CyberDildonics 10mo ago
Wouldn't this just be called hosting?
eTomte 10mo ago
I've been running synapse on a small VPS for the past few years. I got some of the bridges working too. Def bumps along the way, but its still the daily driver for me and about five other people. Recently I spun up the new ESS Community Edition on a new VPS. Much easier to get up and running. I was delightfully surprised. although since that one uses kubernetes and other things I'm not familiar with getting bridges and other things I've become used to is going to require more learning on my part. Since ESS is so new, not a lot of newbie friendly howtos yet out there. I remain optimistic.
stevenicr 10mo ago
I've installed fresh matrix about 8 times or so, got it to work 3 of those times. I started looking for how to do a fresh install earlier this year (matrix/synapse element) and I have no idea which docs to use, It was bad enough before that I had to detour to random places to find workarounds for things like how nginx does it's thing differently than the matrix docs I was reading at the time.. but now with the newer element that makes it easy to not find a self hosting way - to main docs being listed as archived or old - I'd enjoy installing it fresh with someone from matrix watching the process just to see what a slog it is - and then watch someone try to get some addins running like admin and moderation. wordpress is a one click install via softalicious and similar on most cpanel 10$ and up hosts.. you can one click add a decent free chat plugin if you are on a VPS. If matrix was that simple to setup, lots of people would be using it.
- Arathorn 10mo ago
  https://github.com/element-hq/ess-helm?tab=readme-ov-file#element-server-suite-community https://github.com/element-hq/ess-helm?tab=readme-ov-file#el... is meant to make it pretty easy. I sped-run an install from scratch in about 90 seconds during the Element keynote for the Matrix conference this year: https://youtu.be/TZgcdgv2NXk?list=PLl5dnxRMP1hUgnYEbpEsEEhIqY_KlO3NG&t=767 https://youtu.be/TZgcdgv2NXk?list=PLl5dnxRMP1hUgnYEbpEsEEhIq... Clearly we need to do a better job of pointing folks there.
yaky 10mo ago
Author of the article here. Thanks for posting, I've only shared this on Fediverse, but there is a much larger discussion here, I see.

262 points by the-anarchist 10mo ago

ekjhgkejhgk 10mo ago

And I thought that XMPP felt broken...

a3w 10mo ago
Now you can feel twice as broken. That is what new, modern standards deliver. Is this part of XCD #927 or another one, too?
- ekjhgkejhgk 10mo ago
  XMPP is 26 years old, Matrix is 11 years old.
Jnr 10mo ago
XMPP felt great when compared to Matrix. Matrix was in a bad state some years ago when I hosted it for a while, and seems like it still is the same messy state. I avoid it as much as possible but for some reason there are communities using it. At this point it should just die so people would be motivated to replace it with something better.
- tcfhgj 10mo ago
  People are motivated to replace it with something better, it's called Matrix 2.0.
  - Orygin 10mo ago
    Do they plan to fix the fundamental issues of Matrix in 2.0 or should I wait for 3.0?
    - tcfhgj 10mo ago
      you could be less vague
      - Orygin 10mo ago
        I could, that's why the link has a few more words about the issues with matrix.
        tcfhgj 10mo ago
        Great, even less vague nw - will get you an answer, not.
  - Jnr 10mo ago
    I tried it a year ago when it was introduced, it did not work. Is it stable now?
    - tcfhgj 10mo ago
      Matrix 2.0? Not quite yet, but it was promised that the next release will be Matrix 2.0
      - Jnr 10mo ago
        I guess it was the Element X client that was advertised as Matrix 2.0 client and that did not work.
        tcfhgj 10mo ago
        It does (now), been using it daily for months now
  - this_user 10mo ago
    Which perfectly fits the Matrix ethos of everything constantly being rewritten or replaced with something new that only implements half the features before the original thing is ever finished.
    - tcfhgj 10mo ago
      I like this more than sticking to things you know you won't be happy with.
    - oblio 10mo ago
      https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html Copy-paste the link, otherwise the Easter egg might be offensive to some :-D
- bigstrat2003 10mo ago
  > I avoid it as much as possible but for some reason there are communities using it. The "for some reason", at least for my group, is because it's rock solid for us. We have no reason to want to change, so of course we are using it.
aidenn0 10mo ago
I've had only one issue with ejabberd (didn't read the docs close enough and had to move from mnesia to sql when I hit the size limit) in over a decade of self-hosting it. Knowing which XEPs you actually want is a bit of a pain, but has gotten easier. Now I usually just periodically look at the current prosody example[1] which lists extensions by "essential" "recommended" "nice to have" and "other" and it's easy enough to find the matching modules for ejabberd. 1: https://prosody.im/doc/example_config https://prosody.im/doc/example_config
- MattJ100 10mo ago
  Prosody dev here. Good to know this is useful :) One of my favourite small features we added in the latest release is a 'prosodyctl check features' command which will validate that your configuration is up to date with current best practices in various ways. Although we like to curate the default configuration with care, people tend to keep their existing configuration file when they upgrade (we generally recommend this, as we aim for backwards compatibility). The new command makes it easier for folk who upgrade to ensure they are still getting the expected experience as the recommendations evolve. Obviously that has to be somewhat opinionated. One thing many people appreciate about Prosody is that you can customize it however you want to, even if it's not following the mainstream. E.g. if you really don't care about synchronizing to multiple devices, you can totally disable that message cache. Don't need audio/video calls? Fine!

jimkleiber 10mo ago

As someone who has looked into forking Matrix for a new type of chat service, I'm grateful to see a more in-depth look at running it behind the scenes. Thank you.

nehal3m 10mo ago

I’ve been running a Matrix server for about two years on a Proxmox host in a colo I rent for the purpose (plus some other hobby stuff, but mainly because I just think it’s cool). This playbook is awesome and it’s pretty easy to set up and keep running: https://github.com/spantaleev/matrix-docker-ansible-deploy https://github.com/spantaleev/matrix-docker-ansible-deploy

pferde 10mo ago

Regarding the "Requires federation" section, that is not true. I've been running a small family-only homeserver for several years now, and had federation disabled on it from the very beginning, and there have been exactly zero issues related to (lack of) federation with it.

wkat4242 10mo ago
Same here, though you do still have to expose it to the internet unless you use a VPN. I'd prefer something with less of an attack service especially because bridges don't currently encrypt, but I host behind vpn now.
- pferde 10mo ago
  That's not a fair criticism. Of course you need to expose the server to the network clients are going to be connecting from. Whether that is Internet or just a LAN, that's orthogonal to the protocol. I've also had an intra-company Matrix server running completely on a company internal LAN, with no Internet access, so there is no inherent need for it to be on The Internet.
  - wkat4242 10mo ago
    Yes but even for a web service the attack surface is pretty big. Lots of obscure URLs and the code isn't that clean either.

styanax 10mo ago

As a former user I felt these pain points trying to do nothing more than have a very active one-on-one chat with a good friend. Tens of messages an hour, maybe 2 years running. Using matrix.org and the pre-X clients. It's fine for group chat (IRC style) but that's not a high bar. (a) the encryption between using a mobile and the webapp desyncs/breaks all the time, it just sucks. I mean you'll get "cannot decrypt" a lot, have to bounce back and forth and generally try and force it to re-sync properly again. Sometimes never worked at all. Lots of issues on GH over the years. (b) as mentioned in this article, insane delays on new message notif and sending and receiving. Just logging in on the webapp every morning took minutes of some sort of mysterious sync process, often the mobile app had the same problems. The X stuff may fix this, we were pre-X. (c) cleanup. There's no message retention set on matrix.org, when I wanted to extract and remove our past chats the process and experience was excruciatingly bad. It took tens of hours over several weekends of the webapp (mobile completely non-op in practice for this) polling and loading old content, just so I could select 100 at a time to delete and then it took an hour. Once I started culling back over a year or so, the loading got longer and longer and longer, until eventually it 100% stopped working at all to load old messages. Signal and DeltaChat are far, far better experiences for one-on-one chats with friends & family. The Delta client is a bit UI/UX behind but not horrible; e.g. you can't correct a typo in a sent message in Delta, unlike Signal - because each msg is a unique gpg-encrypted "email" rather than a database object that can be re-manipulated.

tcfhgj 10mo ago
a) is really not a big issue any more b) yeah, X solves it (via sliding sync)
- bronson 10mo ago
  a) As of when? I had a "cannot decrypt" room failure on matrix.org a year ago. b) Unfortunately, X breaks other important things, like audio/video calls. It currently feels like an alpha-quality release: buggy and lots of missing features. Not ready for widespread use.
  - 10mo ago

mcluck 10mo ago

I've tried off and on to actually use Matrix. I was a bit of a loud supporter in the early days. Unfortunately, it looks like it still hasn't grown past the fundamental issues I was having then. It might be time to try something else

yaky 10mo ago
What issues did you have / still have? When I started using Matrix, Riot.im did not get notifications in time, or was a battery hog. And Synapse took up a lot of memory, with occasional slowdowns. But then, circa 2022, Synapse improved and Element seems to have worked well and was consistent and reliable on all platforms.
- mcluck 10mo ago
  That's exactly the sorts of issues I was having. That and it somehow kept losing my encryption information so I'd lose access to all of my messages or something similarly ridiculous

jchw 10mo ago

I've mentioned this here before, but it bears repeating. A couple years ago or so, I made the catastrophic choice to use Dendrite as my homeserver software. It seemed like a safe bet: it was supposedly lighter weight than Synapse, being written in Go instead of Python and with everything reengineered from the ground up. It didn't support everything, but nothing in the disclaimers made it seem like it was about to abruptly become defunded and essentially unmaintained. Alas, that's exactly what happened not too long after I made that choice. Despite showing no interest in maintaining it, New Vector still found it necessary to relicense their abandonware under the more restrictive AGPL license. Good priorities. Then, when a security patch was needed, a new release was rushed out that included not just a security fix, but also a bug that caused Dendrite to completely stop processing messages for minutes at a time multiple times a day. (This only got fixed months later by a volunteer.) Joining large federated rooms on Dendrite took so long that I thought it was just broken; it could take hours to days to complete the operation! There was even a brief period when Element actually didn't even support Dendrite, leaving everyone locked out. Dendrite has never supported Element X, and the old sliding sync proxy was never updated to support the new simplified sliding sync either, which means you're stuck with the old slow sync and no support for things that require it. Also, most appservers still don't work right on Dendrite either. I got Mautrix-Discord working, but only for DMs. I legitimately could go on and I'm sure I've forgotten things. It's amazing how quickly my experience with Dendrite went from pretty good to nightmare. I realized that nobody in charge at the Matrix Foundation or New Vector really cared enough about leaving people stranded on a completely broken server to actually do anything about it (and trust me, I'm not alone. In every single federated room I've ever been in, I've always seen hostnames with dendrite subdomains. I could see them pass by in the logs while joining servers was taking hours.) I honestly considered just leaving the Matrix ecosystem, but I wasn't alone on my home server, so I decided to do my best to fix the problem. I wrote a tool that attempts to migrate the data from Dendrite to Synapse. This is a complicated operation that really took a huge amount of effort to get working, but after a couple of months of failed attempts, I had a test where I was able to seamlessly perform the migration and have clients continue to work and stay in federated rooms. So after getting it "close enough", I went ahead and gave the migration a shot in production and of course, it didn't work very well. All of the user accounts were intact, but a lot of stuff was broken. People indeed stayed in federated rooms, but my room state migration was definitely not 100% correct. Despite this, though, after manually cleaning up the database a bit more, hackishly while live, it was mostly a success. I believe I am probably the first person to directly move from Dendrite to Synapse. So now that I am on Synapse, have my thoughts on Matrix changed? Yes. It's significantly better using Synapse, without question. The ecosystem is still a mess, but everything about Synapse is less broken than Dendrite. There are so many features Dendrite just doesn't do, like URL previews. Why not contribute to Dendrite? Honestly, I don't want to. Their CLA sucks and they're not going to change it for me, and I don't think they're really going to spend time reviewing PRs given the circumstances. If I'm going to contribute to a project without retaining my rights I'd prefer to be on payroll. That's not something you should get from a community member. Either change the CLA to guarantee the project must stay open, or don't expect any free contributions. Why not post my migration tool? Well honestly, for starters, it's not a very high quality tool. I could probably do some good for the Matrix ecosystem if I could get this tool in much better shape and have it migrating complex room states correctly, but I don't even know if I want to help anyways. This should've never been my problem. I will fully admit that it was my bad choice that got me here, but I really think it can be forgiven: nothing I saw suggested to me that Dendrite was on the way out. On the contrary, everything suggested it was the future, and just simply not ready for large scale usage yet. I'm bitter. I spent a lot of hours on this problem and I feel like hours spent on the Matrix ecosystem won't be repaid. I hate to be this cynical, but it's just how it is. It's a mess. I didn't bother going into the other messes that still exist when using Synapse, like the seemingly many different ways that VoIP can work in Element and Element X, and the fact that Element X seems to only support a newer VoIP protocol that Element on desktop does not. (Surprise! There is no Element X on desktop...) Matrix has some other downsides, that I think are tolerable but definitely make me a bit bummed. It leaks quite a lot of metadata to the homeservers, which is kind of alright, but I do think it's a bit sad; even room names are not encrypted, clearly it would be possible to do better. The ecosystem of clients is sad; Element is the only one that is feature complete and while I think it has improved quite a lot I still would prefer a native application over a web view. (You kind of need a webview if you want feature parity though, since group A/V in Element desktop seems to just use a Jitsi iframe...) The upside is that it is federated and at least messages and files are E2EE in DMs and optionally for groups. I do like that. Personally though the federation thing feels a bit off to me. I know it's a pipe dream, but it just feels like 1-on-1 and small group DMs should be roughly peer-to-peer. Servers should be for chatrooms and relays. The problems I see are mobile notifications, offline messaging, and discovery. I have wondered if a model like AT proto could get you there for DMs. I would like to try to prototype something some day, but I know that at this point the XKCD 927 count for IM software is pretty insane, so if I'm going to throw my hat into the ring it better be worth it. Maybe some day I will be less bitter. I mean, Matrix is free, how much can I really be angry if it didn't work how I wanted it to. But, it's hard. I tried to buy in hard, and wound up making a lot of trouble for me and a small group of people that I inadvertently looped into my own mess. I trusted Matrix because it seemed to be the leading option, but definitely I will now be much, much more careful before adopting an ecosystem into my life and the life of people around me. For example, I still have no ActivityPub server... Maybe it's better if I just wait and see what happens there before jumping in, if I'm going to.

maelito 10mo ago

I've been using Matrix for several years as a user. It works great. The problems decrypting messages have gone. X is becoming a good client. I'm deleting my whatsapp and télégram accounts in a few weeks after a painful week-long backup... Edit : I wonder how easy it is to backup a Matrix accounts's data. Conversations and files.

BrenBarn 10mo ago
> I wonder how easy it is to backup a Matrix accounts's data. Conversations and files. Not as easy as you might hope. The Element client has an export feature, but you have to manually activate it on each room/chat, and the export has a size cap so it may not work if you have lots of files you want to save. It's also pretty slow if the room has a lot of history. You could also try using something like Matrix Commander (a command-line client), but I couldn't get that to work fully either.

Almondsetat 10mo ago

>this also creates a situation where anything said across federation cannot be unsaid, which is an ironic situation for a protocol/system that often comes up when talking about privacy. How is it ironic? No protocol in the world can force anyone to delete anything from their own device. Chat apps that implement this function are either proprietary (so you cannot control what they can do) or, if OSS, do it on a pinky-promise-basis.

a3w 10mo ago
Right, but we did have efforts to take over hardware security enclaves to deliver user data, instead of copyrighted company data, to user devices. Tim Berners-Lee tries to make the internet a place where you can choose, what it "forgets". At least that were the news I got from the 2010s and early 2020s. As for how: DRM-like tech in the hands of users should allow for that. So having privacy by design would be nice, and e.g. many messengers try to do "it is inconvenient to copy a message that someone send you that is marked as view-only-once-or-up-to-a-timespan, but of course, you can use an external camera, i.e. make more low-fidelity copies or even exfiltrate data". Even F/LOS software can use/would be forced to use these proprietary enclaves or at least non-user accessible key stores. (As far as I understand hardware level DRM.)
- Almondsetat 10mo ago
  >Tim Berners-Lee tries to make the internet a place where you can choose, what it "forgets". At least that were the news I got from the 2010s and early 2020s. Tim Berners-Lee created the web, not the internet, which is what chat apps use. Also, unless you can provide some direct quotes about it being designed for "forgetting" stuff, I have no idea where these "news" you got came from. >As for how: DRM-like tech in the hands of users should allow for that. If it's in the hands of the users, i.e. open source, it can be disabled at any moment, which is exactly what my reply already addressed.
  - everforward 10mo ago
    I think they're talking about Solid, Tim Berners-Lee's newer venture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_(web_decentralization_project) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_(web_decentralization_pr...

24t 10mo ago

To add another data point, I've been hosting a (tiny) matrix server for a few months. I'm pretty comfortable with self-hosting using docker, so I opted not to use the ansible scripts in the hope that it'd keep my setup simpler and more maintainable. Somehow I didn't find any mentions of ESS until Synapse was already up and running, but Kubernetes would have been a dealbreaker for similar reasons. In this short time I've run a database migration (sqlite is the default, but MAS requires postgres), tried and failed to migrate to MAS (required to use Element X) and have lost a couple of days messing around with coturn and eturnal with nothing to show for it -- my calls still don't connect when NAT is involved. I have to tell new users to ignore the recommendations to install Element X until I get MAS working. There's a lot of room for foundational improvements here, even updating docs to point would-be server admins to the recommended setup du jour would help.

chrismorgan 10mo ago

> While technically, Synapse can work with a sqlite database (and which at first seems like an OK choice for having <10 users on the server), it WILL become corrupted I want to hear more about this. Is this because Synapse’s SQLite support is half-baked? What sort of corruption are we taking about?

udev4096 10mo ago
I use sqlite for synapse (since ~2 years) and I haven't noticed any corruption at all. I am in lot of rooms (20-30) with 1k-2k users in a lot of them and the db size is 8.8G currently

tony-john12 10mo ago

[dead]

lousken 10mo ago

Same setup here since 2017. Since then, RAM usage decreased by 60%. The admin panel is not something I'd need but it would be a nice-to-have. Started with postgres as I wouldn't go for anything else if I wanna use it for decades. It has 2.5GBs for 10users and I don't mind if it takes 10 or 20, that's something I expected. Never did a cleanup of anything, I just dumped the db and moved to OVH recently onto a new VPS with NVMe SSD, it flies. The fact that I cannot delete attachments that users delete is certainly my biggest irritation, 50GBs of stuff I am not sure if I can or cannot delete, but considering the size, I am just gonna bite the bullet, couple terabytes should not be a problem in 25 years. But this is def something I would love to see addressed sooner rather than later. It must be a pain even for the matrix.org server team. After moving to a better server I do not have issues with slow notification unless the phone is sleeping for longer period of time which is an android optimization (I'd assume). It is more reliable than teams at this point. One of my friends had issues but removing 15 old devices fixed the issue. As for element-x, I did call out "the another rewrite" issue especially with android and I do think it makes things worse. I still do not know how am I supposed to fix calling and video between old and new clients. For now I don't bother with new clients and everyone is using old ones, but it starts to become an issue as classic clients are in maintenance only mode

0x1ch 10mo ago
Whatever is going on in Matrix land isn't stable enough for most people to switch. I gave up after they broke their calling system after changing something to this livekit system. It doesn't work, my existing TURN server became useless, and Matrix was left as a very slow chat application. I'm over it.
- lousken 10mo ago
  I don't plan to give up just yet. Switching is way too difficult and I don't see many platforms having both solid desktop and mobile versions with e2ee. But if they dare rewriting anything again from scratch I am leaving. They MUST stick with what they have and make it good at this point.
  - 10mo ago

nonamesleft 10mo ago

Ran synapse for a few months, figured out all the tui clients are either abandonware or broken (originally thought i could use bitlbee, and did the install before realizing it was unusable). Looked at current tui offerings now some years later, situation seems to be unchanged, the only client that ran back then was gomuks, and that has received a rewrite that hasn't reached feature parity yet. I am probably the type of person referred to in the last part of xkcd 1782.

Arathorn 10mo ago
iamb is pretty good and not abandonware, fwiw: https://github.com/ulyssa/iamb https://github.com/ulyssa/iamb

df0b9f169d54 10mo ago

OT: I have some very big groups in Telegram (7 years or more, with a lot of pictures). Can Matrix (Rocketchat or alternatives) have similar storage features (with some migration scripts)? Thanks

udev4096 10mo ago

I have been hosting synapse for 2 years now and it's been a smooth sail. I don't recall having any major breaking changes, most updates are smooth. Element client itself is definitely PITA but it's getting better

Barathkanna 10mo ago

TLDR Self-hosting isn’t dying because people stopped caring. It’s dying because the complexity has gotten out of hand. This post highlights how something that used to be a fun, lightweight hobby has turned into a full-time maintenance burden. Systems like Matrix are powerful, but they’ve become so intricate that even skilled engineers struggle to run them reliably. The result is a slow drift back toward centralized platforms, not out of preference, but because convenience keeps winning over autonomy. It’s a reminder of the growing gap between the ideal of a user-owned internet and the realities of modern software.

omnimus 10mo ago
I would say it became much easier in recent years. docker-compose became defacto server "app install", any linux supports it. That includes GUI options like Truenas/Unraid and very nice admins like Dockge exist. The company behind matrix is aiming at huge scale servers but if you care about unfederated private instances you will find there are few much simpler "one binary" projects that can even use file based sqlite/rocksdb. Hosting those couldn't be simpler. You actually don't even need docker just systemd service and switch binary when updating.
- Arathorn 10mo ago
  If you want a simple docker-compose for Matrix, you can always use https://github.com/element-hq/element-docker-demo https://github.com/element-hq/element-docker-demo. The reason Element ships ESS Community as kubernetes helm charts is simply so that the officially supported distro is as close as possible to the thing we have to support for the big govtech customers, where docker compose simply isn't going to cut it. Perversely, that means that ESS Community is pretty bulletproof (even if the scaling stuff is missing), but comes at the expense of having to run k8s.
BrenBarn 10mo ago
Yeah, I think this is true and it's unfortunate. I think it's one of the areas where what seemed like the plan for Matrix hasn't totally worked out in practice. And it's even just the intricacy of managing it; some of the problems are deeper in the design. When I started using it several years ago, it seemed their vision was a lot of people running a lot of small servers. But the full-replication nature of the protocol, plus the resource demands of the server software, make that kind of impractical. Even tech-oriented people may shy away if they find out the database could grow to tens of gigabytes, and Synapse is not exactly light on RAM or CPU either. Perhaps in the future if implementations improve some of this may get better, and it will become more feasible for small operators to run their own servers. But by that time it will be harder to build trust because too many people will have written it off as bloated or unstable. I think it would have been better to start lean and keep the system in more of a nerd niche until that process of evolution reached a later stage.

The_President 10mo ago

Ran a homeserver for 5 years on a minimal VPS and it worked fine. Upsides - works everywhere, self hosted, feature complete. Client software in the ecosystem mostly felt bloated, with the exception of NeoChat. By 2022 the clients could no longer call each other. Decommissioned it this year in favor of traditional XMPP which works fine and it's nice that notifications are appropriately processed, finally. Our team highly appreciates the work done in Matrix it's just unfortunate that the elephant in the room was never addressed at the start of the project, which is the need for a -simple- first-party administrative dashboard or tool to manage users, storage, and configuration. Without that core component, then you've got a layer of complexity between an admin and an audit which will increase likelihood of misconfiguration or resource management issues.

Arathorn 10mo ago
We did address the elephant eventually with https://github.com/element-hq/element-admin https://github.com/element-hq/element-admin a few months ago. In terms of VoIP interop - yes, one of the worst bits of Matrix is that the legacy 1:1 VoIP calling is not interoperable with MatrixRTC-based (multiparty) VoIP calling, but we ran out of time/cash to implement interop and instead focused on making MatrixRTC work well. (Does XMPP give you E2EE multiparty calling ooi?)
- The_President 10mo ago
  Thank you Aaron for the direct response. Glad to see the central interface for administrative use. Haven't had the need to use the calling feature in a while. One of the hurdles with the Rust client on Fdroid was it was too new for the OS on the device it needed to be used on, but on iOS it was a performance improvement. One of the genius ideas behind Element was the ecosystem of clients services that attach to rooms, and in some cases XMPP does not reach those expectations. I do plan on a redeployment soon after creating a new technical scope for its use. I like what I can observe of the new admin interface. I hope it can come to include security and configuration check guidances to provide tools for admins of all skillsets to properly configure their servers, and related TURN-or-not and storage. Matrix is bigtime like XMPP - I don't think it's going anywhere anytime soon. Thankful for all that it has provided to our organizations.

jamesbelchamber 10mo ago

> The only thing that I don't really understand is the decision on data replication. If a user on server A joins a room on server B, recent room data is copied from server B to server A and then kept in sync on both servers. The idea here is that rooms are abstracted from servers and sort-of exist ephemerally. This has the advantage/disadvantage of making it hard for the underlying infrastructure to exert control over the hosted communities, and seems to have become a distinguishing feature of federation. My experience of Matrix as a possible replacement for Discord has led me to believe it's mostly a disadvantage since it leads to gross misalignments between the communities in top and the infrastructure providers underneath. I consider e.g. Discourse to be much healthier (although I would like to see an app for Discourse so that my Discourse communities behave more like Discord/Slack servers) and it's frustrating to me that there hasn't been a clear "Discourse for chat" emerge to replace Discord.

toastal 10mo ago
You could also try Movim. You could have a decentralized XMPP server with a client that support group calls as well as having posts like a forum folks can comment on.
- jamesbelchamber 10mo ago
  There are a bunch of options out there (though I've never seen Movim - thanks, I'll check it out) but most communities seem either to be on Discord or Matrix (with a few still hanging on to IRC and a few others on Slack) - Discord being by far the best UX of the lot.
octoberfranklin 10mo ago
> The idea here is that rooms are abstracted from servers and sort-of exist ephemerally No, that's not even remotely true. In fact the opposite is true. The domain name of the server used to create the room is perpetually and permanently embedded in the room name and can't be changed, ever.
- foresto 10mo ago

JadedBlueEyes 10mo ago

> Synapse is the only choice that supports bridges This is not true, at least today. Continuwuity, which is an alternative server implementation, and its predecessors support bridges very well.

Youden 10mo ago
I set up Whatsapp and Telegram bridges with Tuwunel today. The config file for mautrix-whatsapp indicates Dendrite should work as well so it seems just about every server implementation supports bridges?
- jchw 10mo ago
  Former Dendrite user: Yes and no. Mautrix stuff does work with Dendrite, technically, but only partially. For Mautrix-Discord, I was able to get DMs mostly working, but only DMs: bridging servers just never really worked at all. I'm honestly not 100% sure why this is the case, but it's not worth worrying about Dendrite anymore. It is a dead-end server that never worked very well. Up until shortly before it was discontinued, none of the Mautrix bridges worked well enough to actually use.

Aurornis 10mo ago

> While technically, Synapse can work with a sqlite database (and which at first seems like an OK choice for having <10 users on the server), it WILL become corrupted. Does anyone have any more information on this? Running Postgres is not a big deal, but I would expect SQLite to be fine given how well it works in my experience.

Arathorn 10mo ago
I've not seen many corrupted sqlite databases, but because Synapse is not currently storage-efficient you can end up with some terrifying large (100GB+) sqlite databases which might as well be corrupted. We only ever supported sqlite for ease of tinkering; it was never intended to be used in production, and in retrospect supporting it at all was a mistake. In terms of synapse storage efficiency and how to improve it, folks may be interested in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5zAgVYBuGk&t=1851s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5zAgVYBuGk&t=1851s
meatmanek 10mo ago
I use sqlite for my 2-user server and haven't had any issues in the several years I've been running it. It's possible to corrupt a sqlite database file, but generally it shouldn't happen unless you're doing something weird with it. https://www.sqlite.org/howtocorrupt.html https://www.sqlite.org/howtocorrupt.html
omnimus 10mo ago
I've been running unfederated Matrix instance with sqlite for 10 years for 10-20 people some very active. In WAL mode sqlite is fine i am not sure why it would get corrupted. Few years ago we did a data/history wipe (i managed to migrate accounts) because we switched to conduit.rs with sqlite. I very much prefer conduit to synapse. I never had issue with sqlite it was mostly Synapse. With recent changes i think they are completely dropping the ball on small instances and it feels like the ecosystem is splitting. Element X is just not very good. It seems to exist to kill classic element and since for element x you need some server features that not all alternative synapse servers support.

Arathorn 10mo ago

There's a bunch of outdated info in here, unfortunately: > Does not have an admin panel The admin panel is at https://github.com/element-hq/element-admin https://github.com/element-hq/element-admin (but it's relatively new, so many folks haven't noticed it exists) > No image captions > > This is silly, but while (official?) bridges support image captions, official Element app does not. Element Web & X support captions. (Element Web doesn't currently support authoring them, but can display them - obviuosly this is on the todo list though). Element Classic has basically not been touched in 2.5 years, unfortunately, and so yes - doesn't support them. But at this point the old app is just not being developed; we don't have bandwidth to do both. > Slow notifications This sounds like it might be overloaded server problems ftr. > Element X is Slower > Somehow, it is slower. Clicking on a conversation takes 0.5-1.0 seconds to load it, compared to almost instant load on Classic. This was an Android specific bug which was fixed a few weeks ago; EXA should now be instant as it should be, at least on nightlies: it was stuff surrounding https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-rust-sdk/pull/5841 https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-rust-sdk/pull/5841 and https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-rust-sdk/pull/5854 https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-rust-sdk/pull/5854. Unsure if the fix has made it into a build yet. EDIT: the fix shipped in stable Element X Android a few weeks ago. > Conversations are sorted by... who knows. It is not recent nor alphabetical. It should be by recency. > Onboarding is bad Sorry, but you have to run an auth server (matrix-authentication-service) if you want Element X to work. EDIT: if i've got any of the above wrong please just say, rather than downvote :D

lousken 10mo ago
> The admin panel is at https://github.com/element-hq/element-admin https://github.com/element-hq/element-admin I think author uses regular synapse install and there is no apt package for element-admin, manual build would be required with no update process. > Element Web & X support captions - i think this is honestly the worst of both worlds if app_old has features A,B,C,D and app_new has A,C,D,E it frustrates both groups of users. Which app are you actually supposed to use? Having feature parity with the old app is essential before moving on with newer features. And I am still waiting for that to tell people to switch.
bronson 10mo ago

alexnewman 10mo ago

I've been developing open source code for over 25 years. i've deployed hugely complicated systems like hadoop. I've never seen anything as hard to run as this + the bridges.

pelzatessa 10mo ago

Been selfhosting synapse for about 1.5 years in a docker compose setup using bunkerweb (formerly "bunkerized nginx", which better explains it premise) reverse proxy, eturnal for TURN and postgres, also recently added livekit and MAS for element call and element X compatibility. All that runs on a small 2vcore/4gb VPS, and it runs pretty good, I experience a server crash every half a month, but that may be caused by the fact that bunkerweb isn't the most lightweight solution (they actually require 8GB RAM minimum, so I'm already beneath the limit), and also because I run some other software (mailserver, ebook server, plex, etc..). My experience as a administrator has been pretty good, perhaps it's because from the beginning I was optimistic, it suited my needs as I wanted a selfhosted, modern and fairly convenient communication platform. From what I recall, most problems during configuration were caused mostly by bunkerweb (or rather my inability to correctly set it up to proxy requests correctly and not hijack the 4xx and 5xx HTTP codes). Synapse itself has been a pleasure to maintain, but also bear in mind that I did not tinker with with it, I basically set it up and let it run for about a year and then added MAS and livekit. Yeah, disk usage sucks, for about 5-10 active users and 1.5 year usage my postgres "schemas" folder clocks at 10Gibs. It doesn't include the media_store catalog where synapse keeps media (images, videos). The homeserver is federated and I joined a couple of big rooms in the past. Mechanics mentioned in the links below do help though: https://matrix-org.github.io/synapse/v1.40/admin_api/purge_history_api.html https://matrix-org.github.io/synapse/v1.40/admin_api/purge_h... https://github.com/matrix-org/rust-synapse-compress-state https://github.com/matrix-org/rust-synapse-compress-state Clientwise also sucks, but I think enough has already been said on this matter. But it's good enough to keep my nontechnical friends using it. They do hate it, but not enough to kick me in the arse. Would love to say that this proves that element clientside is usable, but I also have to admit that my friends are just hella good guys who would even write pigeon mail to me if I stopped using anything else for communication :) for me as a techie, element is obviously alright. Clunky, but works. I think clients simply need more time. What irritates me is the Matrix authentication service (MAS), it's kind of a separate service for matrix homeservers that handles logins specifficaly. You can't use element X without it. However when it's enabled, you cannot log in from your client, instead a web browser opens and shows the login panel where you have to authorize, and then it should return to the client. Except in my case it simply doesn't :( I observed that for some reason chromium based browsers won't redirect back to the element app, and it doesn't know that the authorization has been granted. I managed to bypass it by copying the URL and opening it on firefox, but in one instance even that didn't work. But other than that MAS problems everything has been fine from administration standpoint. I think it simply needs more time, as it already has traction, I see that a lot of new projects seem to include a matrix room in their social/communication channels, frequently it's the only option besides the bugtracker. And I'm willing to wait patiently :) edit: added links for people who also struggle with disk space usage

CyberDildonics 10mo ago

Wouldn't this just be called hosting?

eTomte 10mo ago

I've been running synapse on a small VPS for the past few years. I got some of the bridges working too. Def bumps along the way, but its still the daily driver for me and about five other people. Recently I spun up the new ESS Community Edition on a new VPS. Much easier to get up and running. I was delightfully surprised. although since that one uses kubernetes and other things I'm not familiar with getting bridges and other things I've become used to is going to require more learning on my part. Since ESS is so new, not a lot of newbie friendly howtos yet out there. I remain optimistic.

stevenicr 10mo ago

I've installed fresh matrix about 8 times or so, got it to work 3 of those times. I started looking for how to do a fresh install earlier this year (matrix/synapse element) and I have no idea which docs to use, It was bad enough before that I had to detour to random places to find workarounds for things like how nginx does it's thing differently than the matrix docs I was reading at the time.. but now with the newer element that makes it easy to not find a self hosting way - to main docs being listed as archived or old - I'd enjoy installing it fresh with someone from matrix watching the process just to see what a slog it is - and then watch someone try to get some addins running like admin and moderation. wordpress is a one click install via softalicious and similar on most cpanel 10$ and up hosts.. you can one click add a decent free chat plugin if you are on a VPS. If matrix was that simple to setup, lots of people would be using it.

Arathorn 10mo ago
https://github.com/element-hq/ess-helm?tab=readme-ov-file#element-server-suite-community https://github.com/element-hq/ess-helm?tab=readme-ov-file#el... is meant to make it pretty easy. I sped-run an install from scratch in about 90 seconds during the Element keynote for the Matrix conference this year: https://youtu.be/TZgcdgv2NXk?list=PLl5dnxRMP1hUgnYEbpEsEEhIqY_KlO3NG&t=767 https://youtu.be/TZgcdgv2NXk?list=PLl5dnxRMP1hUgnYEbpEsEEhIq... Clearly we need to do a better job of pointing folks there.

yaky 10mo ago

Author of the article here. Thanks for posting, I've only shared this on Fediverse, but there is a much larger discussion here, I see.