6 ms·

This isn't surprising. All of the X11 based WMs are slowly bit-rotting. Unless the people that care about them step up and start maintaining the stack instead o

by WD-42 11mo ago

This isn't surprising. All of the X11 based WMs are slowly bit-rotting. Unless the people that care about them step up and start maintaining the stack instead of just endlessly complaining about Wayland it'll only get worse.

embedding-shape 11mo ago
> start maintaining the stack instead of just endlessly complaining about Wayland it'll only get worse. This is actually what forced me to migrate to Wayland, seeing lots of people complaining about Wayland but not seeing people stepping up to maintain X11. And those who used to maintain X11, built Wayland instead. Yes, Wayland isn't perfect, but for professionals who just want shit to continue working, you kind of have to move to the software that is being maintained, for better or worse.
- sprash 11mo ago
  Always the same lies. People "stepped up" in the and as a result were outright banned from the gitlab (instead of e.g. just rejecting pull requests). Current maintainers refuse to do any release management and instead treat every merge into master as a new release. This kind of sabotage makes development or contributing very difficult. Also the people that used to maintain X11 (e.g. Keith Packard) had nothing to do with building Wayland. Wayland on the other is just a insanely stupid API. Everybody advocating for Wayland should be forced to write a simple client at least once without relying on behemoths like GTK or Qt.
  - bitwize 11mo ago
    > People "stepped up" If by "people" you mean a fascist who doesn't know how to program, then sure. But the sensible people who don't present a security threat with their politics or with shitty code are 100% in the Wayland camp. > Also the people that used to maintain X11 (e.g. Keith Packard) had nothing to do with building Wayland. Those people aren't maintaining X11 today, are they? The people who are maintaining X11 today have put it in bugfix-only mode and have told you, many times, that the future is Wayland. End of discussion. Look, you want to run a retro 90s desktop for shits and giggles, that's great. There's even an officially supported path for this use case: Ariadne Conill's Wayback. But the DEs and the toolkits are all removing X11 support within the next year or two. There is no future there. You want to keep running modern software, you will have to switch to Wayland eventually—and soon. > Wayland on the other is just a insanely stupid API. Everybody advocating for Wayland should be forced to write a simple client at least once without relying on behemoths like GTK or Qt. Nobody actually develops applications that way. They all use a toolkit, and the behemoths cover pretty much 90% of actual application development (modulo things like Electron). Both of those, by the way, are deprecating X11 support.
  - gf000 11mo ago
    > outright banned from the gitlab Yeah, lies and then you come in with shit like this. You can surely show several proofs then, right? > Wayland on the other is just a insanely stupid API. Everybody advocating for Wayland should be forced to write a simple client at least once without relying on behemoths like GTK or Qt. Why would you do it outside of toying around? Btw, I have and it's nothing out of ordinary.
    - tomstockmail 11mo ago
      I believe that user is referring to this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44199511 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44199511
    - dabockster 11mo ago
      If this was a paid job, both you and sprash would have been fired or at least PIP'ed several comments ago. This kind of behavior has ZERO place in any code project - professional or volunteer.
      - gf000 11mo ago
        As far as I know this is a comment section, not a project. Where exactly have I had a problematic comment?
      - philipallstar 11mo ago
        If this were a writing contest, your comment would be entirely unsuitable and you'd have been summarily ejected.
  - kombine 11mo ago
    X11 is on the way out. Both major DEs will abandon X11 backend within one year.
    - sprash 11mo ago
      [flagged]
      - WD-42 11mo ago
        You’re in a bubble.
  - darkwater 11mo ago
    So, what's stopping these rejected contributors to create their hard fork of XOrg, just like XOrg was a hard fork of XFree86?
    - bitwize 11mo ago
      XLibre is that hard fork. But distros are reticent to adopt it as it's considered a security risk.
  - deleted 11mo ago
    [deleted]
leephillips 11mo ago
I use dwm. There is no bitrot.
- 3836293648 11mo ago
  There's still bitrot on the X.org side even if your DM is maintained
  - leephillips 11mo ago
    > All of the X11 based WMs are slowly bit-rotting. was the statement I was replying to. In 10 years of using dwm I've not been aware of any bitrot that affects me. Certainly nome in the WM itself.
  - ulfbert_inc 11mo ago
    There's X11libre for Linux and there's X on OpenBSD and FreeBSD. I am sure it will be fine.
  - michaelmrose 11mo ago
    Define what problems you think exist please.
  - blueflow 11mo ago
    Only on systemd/logind systems. Bitrot doesn't just happen, it caused by your dependencies considering your usecases obsolete.
    - bitwize 11mo ago
      Oh, so only on systems running the standard stack that 90% of Linux systems run then. Nope, no bitrot here. Always the same lies...
      - blueflow 11mo ago
        I see no contradiction? Bitrot is caused by some other project moving. Of course the niche projects will suffer less from it if they incorporate less innovations. Edit: You really do like calling other people liars and fascists?
shrubble 11mo ago
Reminder that Wayland is now older than X11R5 was, when Wayland started and claimed X11 was old and bad code.
michaelmrose 11mo ago
X11 is still in fact maintained to a degree insofar as minimally fixing bugs. Last activity 2 hours ago at time of writing. https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/groups/xorg/-/activity https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/groups/xorg/-/activity Most of the people complaining are users who don't write any software. There is no practical difficulty in using an x11 wm at this point nor expected to be until major software not only doesn't support x11 by default but cannot be built with support for same. Maybe it will be difficult to run X in 2030?
sprash 11mo ago
There is no X11 bitrot. Just a lack of funding. If funding for Wayland stopped today, Wayland would die much quicker than X11 because there is essentially zero community involvement whereas for X11 there are enough people that care to keep it alive for free.
- gf000 11mo ago
  Desktop Linux is more of a love project, it has basically no real support. Compared to the kernel it's more like YouTube $5 comments. And given that Wayland has less moving pieces (it properly sits on top of kernel abstractions), your take is even less likely to be true.
  - sprash 11mo ago
    Desktop Linux needs standardized and stable infrastructure. X11 delivers on that perfectly. Wayland despite receiving huge amounts funding has actually far more moving pieces. Even for the simplest tasks you have to deal with a dbus infested portal maze, many parallel infrastructure effects and high fragmentation. The API is atrociously stupid and cumbersome. Besides that the modesetting driver of xorg also sits "properly on top of kernel abstractions". How is this in any ways a relevant criterion. What matters is that Wayland clearly makes the wrong abstractions for Desktop applications and the vast amount of parallel infrastructure required to do even the simplest tasks shows that.
    - gf000 11mo ago
      > Wayland despite receiving huge amounts funding Citation needed > Even for the simplest tasks you have to deal with a dbus infested portal maze The simplest task is displaying a buffer, or changing a buffer, or handling events, and absolutely none of them have anything to do with dbus whatsoever. Also, have you seen an X11 desktop environment like KDE or Gnome? I recommend looking at all the dbus messages that are in flight there at any time.
    - colordrops 11mo ago
      > perfectly For a very strange definition of "perfect". Dbus does suck, I'll give you that.
BrenBarn 11mo ago
Why is the onus on people to step up and fix X11 instead of on the people pushing Wayland to just stop pushing it? There would be no need to "fix" things if people weren't pushing an incompatible system that can't do what the old one can do.
dabockster 11mo ago
> All of the X11 based WMs are slowly bit-rotting. An absolute metric TON of code in general that is/was largely dependent on free $0 volunteer labor has been bit rotting for the past 5 years. The COVID pandemic and the ongoing tech layoffs have really opened our eyes to just how much tech got built for free by firms pushing "always be coding" down our throats in the 2010s. It's why the only truly stable Linux OSes right now are largely Ubuntu and RHEL (even more RHEL lately) - you get what you pay for if no one else is footing the bill.

by WD-42 11mo ago

embedding-shape 11mo ago

> start maintaining the stack instead of just endlessly complaining about Wayland it'll only get worse. This is actually what forced me to migrate to Wayland, seeing lots of people complaining about Wayland but not seeing people stepping up to maintain X11. And those who used to maintain X11, built Wayland instead. Yes, Wayland isn't perfect, but for professionals who just want shit to continue working, you kind of have to move to the software that is being maintained, for better or worse.

sprash 11mo ago
Always the same lies. People "stepped up" in the and as a result were outright banned from the gitlab (instead of e.g. just rejecting pull requests). Current maintainers refuse to do any release management and instead treat every merge into master as a new release. This kind of sabotage makes development or contributing very difficult. Also the people that used to maintain X11 (e.g. Keith Packard) had nothing to do with building Wayland. Wayland on the other is just a insanely stupid API. Everybody advocating for Wayland should be forced to write a simple client at least once without relying on behemoths like GTK or Qt.
- bitwize 11mo ago
  > People "stepped up" If by "people" you mean a fascist who doesn't know how to program, then sure. But the sensible people who don't present a security threat with their politics or with shitty code are 100% in the Wayland camp. > Also the people that used to maintain X11 (e.g. Keith Packard) had nothing to do with building Wayland. Those people aren't maintaining X11 today, are they? The people who are maintaining X11 today have put it in bugfix-only mode and have told you, many times, that the future is Wayland. End of discussion. Look, you want to run a retro 90s desktop for shits and giggles, that's great. There's even an officially supported path for this use case: Ariadne Conill's Wayback. But the DEs and the toolkits are all removing X11 support within the next year or two. There is no future there. You want to keep running modern software, you will have to switch to Wayland eventually—and soon. > Wayland on the other is just a insanely stupid API. Everybody advocating for Wayland should be forced to write a simple client at least once without relying on behemoths like GTK or Qt. Nobody actually develops applications that way. They all use a toolkit, and the behemoths cover pretty much 90% of actual application development (modulo things like Electron). Both of those, by the way, are deprecating X11 support.
- gf000 11mo ago
  > outright banned from the gitlab Yeah, lies and then you come in with shit like this. You can surely show several proofs then, right? > Wayland on the other is just a insanely stupid API. Everybody advocating for Wayland should be forced to write a simple client at least once without relying on behemoths like GTK or Qt. Why would you do it outside of toying around? Btw, I have and it's nothing out of ordinary.
  - tomstockmail 11mo ago
    I believe that user is referring to this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44199511 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44199511
  - dabockster 11mo ago
    If this was a paid job, both you and sprash would have been fired or at least PIP'ed several comments ago. This kind of behavior has ZERO place in any code project - professional or volunteer.
    - gf000 11mo ago
      As far as I know this is a comment section, not a project. Where exactly have I had a problematic comment?
    - philipallstar 11mo ago
      If this were a writing contest, your comment would be entirely unsuitable and you'd have been summarily ejected.
- kombine 11mo ago
  X11 is on the way out. Both major DEs will abandon X11 backend within one year.
  - sprash 11mo ago
    [flagged]
    - WD-42 11mo ago
      You’re in a bubble.
- darkwater 11mo ago
  So, what's stopping these rejected contributors to create their hard fork of XOrg, just like XOrg was a hard fork of XFree86?
  - bitwize 11mo ago
    XLibre is that hard fork. But distros are reticent to adopt it as it's considered a security risk.
- deleted 11mo ago
  [deleted]

leephillips 11mo ago

I use dwm. There is no bitrot.

3836293648 11mo ago
There's still bitrot on the X.org side even if your DM is maintained
- leephillips 11mo ago
  > All of the X11 based WMs are slowly bit-rotting. was the statement I was replying to. In 10 years of using dwm I've not been aware of any bitrot that affects me. Certainly nome in the WM itself.
- ulfbert_inc 11mo ago
  There's X11libre for Linux and there's X on OpenBSD and FreeBSD. I am sure it will be fine.
- michaelmrose 11mo ago
  Define what problems you think exist please.
- blueflow 11mo ago
  Only on systemd/logind systems. Bitrot doesn't just happen, it caused by your dependencies considering your usecases obsolete.
  - bitwize 11mo ago
    Oh, so only on systems running the standard stack that 90% of Linux systems run then. Nope, no bitrot here. Always the same lies...
    - blueflow 11mo ago
      I see no contradiction? Bitrot is caused by some other project moving. Of course the niche projects will suffer less from it if they incorporate less innovations. Edit: You really do like calling other people liars and fascists?

shrubble 11mo ago

Reminder that Wayland is now older than X11R5 was, when Wayland started and claimed X11 was old and bad code.

michaelmrose 11mo ago

X11 is still in fact maintained to a degree insofar as minimally fixing bugs. Last activity 2 hours ago at time of writing. https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/groups/xorg/-/activity https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/groups/xorg/-/activity Most of the people complaining are users who don't write any software. There is no practical difficulty in using an x11 wm at this point nor expected to be until major software not only doesn't support x11 by default but cannot be built with support for same. Maybe it will be difficult to run X in 2030?

sprash 11mo ago

There is no X11 bitrot. Just a lack of funding. If funding for Wayland stopped today, Wayland would die much quicker than X11 because there is essentially zero community involvement whereas for X11 there are enough people that care to keep it alive for free.

gf000 11mo ago
Desktop Linux is more of a love project, it has basically no real support. Compared to the kernel it's more like YouTube $5 comments. And given that Wayland has less moving pieces (it properly sits on top of kernel abstractions), your take is even less likely to be true.
- sprash 11mo ago
  Desktop Linux needs standardized and stable infrastructure. X11 delivers on that perfectly. Wayland despite receiving huge amounts funding has actually far more moving pieces. Even for the simplest tasks you have to deal with a dbus infested portal maze, many parallel infrastructure effects and high fragmentation. The API is atrociously stupid and cumbersome. Besides that the modesetting driver of xorg also sits "properly on top of kernel abstractions". How is this in any ways a relevant criterion. What matters is that Wayland clearly makes the wrong abstractions for Desktop applications and the vast amount of parallel infrastructure required to do even the simplest tasks shows that.
  - gf000 11mo ago
    > Wayland despite receiving huge amounts funding Citation needed > Even for the simplest tasks you have to deal with a dbus infested portal maze The simplest task is displaying a buffer, or changing a buffer, or handling events, and absolutely none of them have anything to do with dbus whatsoever. Also, have you seen an X11 desktop environment like KDE or Gnome? I recommend looking at all the dbus messages that are in flight there at any time.
  - colordrops 11mo ago
    > perfectly For a very strange definition of "perfect". Dbus does suck, I'll give you that.

BrenBarn 11mo ago

Why is the onus on people to step up and fix X11 instead of on the people pushing Wayland to just stop pushing it? There would be no need to "fix" things if people weren't pushing an incompatible system that can't do what the old one can do.

dabockster 11mo ago

> All of the X11 based WMs are slowly bit-rotting. An absolute metric TON of code in general that is/was largely dependent on free $0 volunteer labor has been bit rotting for the past 5 years. The COVID pandemic and the ongoing tech layoffs have really opened our eyes to just how much tech got built for free by firms pushing "always be coding" down our throats in the 2010s. It's why the only truly stable Linux OSes right now are largely Ubuntu and RHEL (even more RHEL lately) - you get what you pay for if no one else is footing the bill.