3 ms·
Ok, that might be true of Linus himself. But I'm not sure what point you're making by bringing that up. Give up then? Linux forever, lets never try and iterate
by josephg 11mo ago
Ok, that might be true of Linus himself. But I'm not sure what point you're making by bringing that up. Give up then? Linux forever, lets never try and iterate and improve?
Its weird talking to people in this thread. I get the impression lots of folks would really like it if the actual C code making up linux stayed in place forever. Like it would be a good thing if humans exploring the cosmos in the year 3025 were still logging in using pam, written in C. And not just C, but the current lines of code we have right now. Why? Because! Because C is the best at things. Things like dynamic linking! Because don't change what works. Because if you rewrite something you might get bugs. Because C is fast and efficient. Oh, never mind fast and efficient - lets compile it with Fil-C even though it makes it really slow, just so long as we don't have to change the code!
I think gnu/linux could be way better than it is now, in lots of ways. I get the impression that we - as a species - have barely scratched the surface of the design space for operating systems. The UNIX model is a really early design attempt. Is it the best design that will ever exist? Of course not. Do you know how the unix socket API came about? It was an intern / grad student at berkley who happened to be at the right place and right time. They invented an API and its basically never been changed since then. Because its the right API? No. Just because they were there and it was too hard to change it later.
I want proper capabilities. I want a microkernel. I want faster syscalls. I want storage that's relational, not just file based. I want atomic disk operations. I want programs which can be migrated between computers while they're running. I want supervisor trees. I want data that can be moved or shared between computers. I want my programming languages which can talk to each other using something richer than the C ABI. I want debugging tools that work with lots of languages. I want to be able to download and run programs from the internet safely, without risking all my data. This is all technically possible today.
But the idea of just making a bug for bug compatible, drop in replacement of a single tool like sudo is met with so much hostility and distrust from the community. Sometimes I think I live in a different world than most people. I think things can be better. I want things to be better. But we can't get there if we can't accept any change.
- cxr 11mo ago> I get the impression lots of folks would really like it if the actual C code making up linux stayed in place forever. Like it would be a good thing if humans exploring the cosmos in the year 3025 were still logging in using pam, written in C. And not just C, but the current lines of code we have right now. What does that even mean? The kernel codebase isn't append-only. Things are constantly getting refactored and improved. > lets never try and iterate and improve? Isn't that what the linked project, Fil-C is doing? Iterating and delivering an (extremely overdue) improvement to the language infrastructure—one of the most fundamental parts of the systems we use? > C is the best at things[…] C is fast and efficient. Oh, never mind fast and efficient - lets compile it with Fil-C even though it makes it really slow It sounds like you would be fine with people who go off and rewrite a system in C# or Smalltalk or whatever, even if it's at the expense of the system being slow. But if someone does the same thing with Fil-C, you're no longer for it. > I think gnu/linux could be way better than it is now, in lots of ways. I get the impression that we - as a species - have barely scratched the surface of the design space for operating systems. The UNIX model is a really early design attempt. Is it the best design that will ever exist? Of course not.[…]¶ I want proper capabilities. I want a microkernel. I want faster syscalls. I want storage that's relational, not just file based. I want[…]¶ But the idea of just making a bug for bug compatible, drop in replacement of a single tool like sudo is met with so much hostility and distrust from the community. In what way is the latter (a bug-for-bug compatible sudo reimplementation written in a different language) moving the needle on the former (the UNIX problem)? You also act as if work on alternatives don't exist. They exist. You're allowed to like them and even run them. Lucent went so far as to relicense from the LPL to the GPL to MIT, so you're even allowed to build on them with virtually no restrictions.