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Fuck. Suddenly I love EU. Edit: As a EU citizen you can get a work permit in any countries in the European Union. Not sure if that's appealing to you, though.

geoffw8 18y ago
'Fuck. Suddenly I love EU.' Yea - me too! It is massively, I think that might be the way forward. Thanks : )
- danw 18y ago
  Berlin - Cheaper than London but has a startup community
  - gibsonf1 18y ago
    I definitely like Berlin - considered living there for a year (I speak German which makes it easier). It is a city of experiments, both good and bad, full of great art, and a very active night-life scene.
    - mcxx 18y ago
      Do people speak good English? How hard do you think it would be for a foreigner (not speaking German) to get around in Berlin?
      - bbb 18y ago
        In the startup scene and among anyone with a technology-oriented college education, it won't be a problem at all. Almost all Germans learn some English in high school, and most retain enough to at least a have basic dialog. In short: working in the startup scene won't be a problem; grocery shopping might be an adventure. ;-)
        davidw 18y ago
        In most major European cities, you can "get by" with English. The problem is that "getting by" is not that satisfying, and after a while you start wanting to be able to communicate in more meaningful ways, and the only way to do that is to either limit yourself to the people that speak English really well (which are fewer in number, and who, in any case, also have friends themselves who don't speak English so well), or learn the local language.
      - DanielH 18y ago
        I think it's fairly easy to get around without speaking german. btw Berlin is great :)
      - deleted 18y ago
        [deleted]
      - albertsun 18y ago
        "Do people speak English well?" you mean. I normally wouldn't point it out, but given the context...
        helveticaman 18y ago
        I think "Do you speak good English?" is correct given that the adjective "good" indicates the quality of his English.
        mcxx 18y ago
        Yup, this is what I had in mind.
        albertsun 18y ago
        Since I'm not a prescriptivist, I'll point out that there's a subtle difference of meaning between "speak good English" and "speak English well", and the meaning here is better reflected by the second phrase. Consider the similar phrase, "Did you eat good pie", versus "Did you eat pie well". In the pie case the former is correct because you're referring to the quality of the pie. In the case at hand, we're talking about the quality of the speaking.
        cperciva 18y ago
        Your example isn't quite the same, since the speaking is what creates the English. A better analogy would be "Do you bake good pies" vs. "Do you bake pies well" -- which don't mean quite the same thing, but they're pretty close.
        shiranaihito 18y ago
        You probably had something like "Do people speak English good?" in mind.
      - maryrosecook 18y ago
        I've been to Berlin several times. Most everyone I met spoke better English than I do. I asked some of them whether this is a common German trait and they said yes, but primarily amongst younger people.
  - mtrimpe 18y ago
    Do you have some more info on that? I'm thinking about moving to SFO as well; but Berlin is probably a lot better!
    - wheels 18y ago
      Berlin's fun, cheap and is a moderate startup hub. You can't compare the startup activity here to the valley, but well, you can't compare the Valley's music and arts culture to Berlin's. Plus, as has been mentioned here several times, you can't just up and go to SFO without the appropriate paperwork. You could spend three months there, but that's really more like an extended holiday than really moving. As for English in Berlin, it's definitely doable. Socially I really find it worthwhile to put effort into learning German since otherwise you're often stuck being the odd-man-out when going out in a group or hanging out with other foreigners.
      - petercooper 18y ago
        * You can't compare the startup activity here to the valley, but well, you can't compare the Valley's music and arts culture to Berlin's.* The Valley maybe, but not San Francisco and the Bay Area generally. San Francisco has an extremely mature (though not in a classic sense) arts and music scene.
        wheels 18y ago
        Sure. It's there and it's good in San Francisco. And Berlin still blows it out of the water. Right now Berlin's one of, if not the, place to be for arts and culture in the west. Which was kind of the point of the analogy -- the Valley / San Francisco is the epicenter for the startup world. Berlin is the epicenter for new music, art, etc. (And this isn't just coming from a biased Berliner; I'm an American that ended found his way here. :-) )
  - nir 18y ago
    How's the Berlin startup scene these days? I visited the place around 2005 - it was a great city and had thriving culture, but seemed to be lagging behind Hamburg or Munich as far as startups. Has it changed since?
    - wheels 18y ago
      "Berlin is the Startup Capital" http://www.deutsche-startups.de/2007/11/29/berlin-ist-die-startup-hauptstadt/ http://www.deutsche-startups.de/2007/11/29/berlin-ist-die-st...
drinian 18y ago
Bear in mind that the US is almost as large (population-wise) as the EU, is a collection of Europe-size states, and we don't have to get work permits when moving between states. Unfortunately we haven't extended that courtesy across the Atlantic yet.
- petercooper 18y ago
  And the US has the benefit of a near universal language. Mobility in the EU is not entirely limited by language, especially with manual work, but in professional circles it's a killer.. so EU mobility is pathetic compared to the US (hardly anyone I know in California is from California.. :))

geoffw8 18y ago

'Fuck. Suddenly I love EU.' Yea - me too! It is massively, I think that might be the way forward. Thanks : )

danw 18y ago
Berlin - Cheaper than London but has a startup community
- gibsonf1 18y ago
  I definitely like Berlin - considered living there for a year (I speak German which makes it easier). It is a city of experiments, both good and bad, full of great art, and a very active night-life scene.
  - mcxx 18y ago
    Do people speak good English? How hard do you think it would be for a foreigner (not speaking German) to get around in Berlin?
    - bbb 18y ago
      In the startup scene and among anyone with a technology-oriented college education, it won't be a problem at all. Almost all Germans learn some English in high school, and most retain enough to at least a have basic dialog. In short: working in the startup scene won't be a problem; grocery shopping might be an adventure. ;-)
      - davidw 18y ago
        In most major European cities, you can "get by" with English. The problem is that "getting by" is not that satisfying, and after a while you start wanting to be able to communicate in more meaningful ways, and the only way to do that is to either limit yourself to the people that speak English really well (which are fewer in number, and who, in any case, also have friends themselves who don't speak English so well), or learn the local language.
    - DanielH 18y ago
      I think it's fairly easy to get around without speaking german. btw Berlin is great :)
    - deleted 18y ago
      [deleted]
    - albertsun 18y ago
      "Do people speak English well?" you mean. I normally wouldn't point it out, but given the context...
      - helveticaman 18y ago
        I think "Do you speak good English?" is correct given that the adjective "good" indicates the quality of his English.
        mcxx 18y ago
        Yup, this is what I had in mind.
        albertsun 18y ago
        Since I'm not a prescriptivist, I'll point out that there's a subtle difference of meaning between "speak good English" and "speak English well", and the meaning here is better reflected by the second phrase. Consider the similar phrase, "Did you eat good pie", versus "Did you eat pie well". In the pie case the former is correct because you're referring to the quality of the pie. In the case at hand, we're talking about the quality of the speaking.
        cperciva 18y ago
        Your example isn't quite the same, since the speaking is what creates the English. A better analogy would be "Do you bake good pies" vs. "Do you bake pies well" -- which don't mean quite the same thing, but they're pretty close.
      - shiranaihito 18y ago
        You probably had something like "Do people speak English good?" in mind.
    - maryrosecook 18y ago
      I've been to Berlin several times. Most everyone I met spoke better English than I do. I asked some of them whether this is a common German trait and they said yes, but primarily amongst younger people.
- mtrimpe 18y ago
  Do you have some more info on that? I'm thinking about moving to SFO as well; but Berlin is probably a lot better!
  - wheels 18y ago
    Berlin's fun, cheap and is a moderate startup hub. You can't compare the startup activity here to the valley, but well, you can't compare the Valley's music and arts culture to Berlin's. Plus, as has been mentioned here several times, you can't just up and go to SFO without the appropriate paperwork. You could spend three months there, but that's really more like an extended holiday than really moving. As for English in Berlin, it's definitely doable. Socially I really find it worthwhile to put effort into learning German since otherwise you're often stuck being the odd-man-out when going out in a group or hanging out with other foreigners.
    - petercooper 18y ago
      * You can't compare the startup activity here to the valley, but well, you can't compare the Valley's music and arts culture to Berlin's.* The Valley maybe, but not San Francisco and the Bay Area generally. San Francisco has an extremely mature (though not in a classic sense) arts and music scene.
      - wheels 18y ago
        Sure. It's there and it's good in San Francisco. And Berlin still blows it out of the water. Right now Berlin's one of, if not the, place to be for arts and culture in the west. Which was kind of the point of the analogy -- the Valley / San Francisco is the epicenter for the startup world. Berlin is the epicenter for new music, art, etc. (And this isn't just coming from a biased Berliner; I'm an American that ended found his way here. :-) )
- nir 18y ago
  How's the Berlin startup scene these days? I visited the place around 2005 - it was a great city and had thriving culture, but seemed to be lagging behind Hamburg or Munich as far as startups. Has it changed since?
  - wheels 18y ago
    "Berlin is the Startup Capital" http://www.deutsche-startups.de/2007/11/29/berlin-ist-die-startup-hauptstadt/ http://www.deutsche-startups.de/2007/11/29/berlin-ist-die-st...

drinian 18y ago

Bear in mind that the US is almost as large (population-wise) as the EU, is a collection of Europe-size states, and we don't have to get work permits when moving between states. Unfortunately we haven't extended that courtesy across the Atlantic yet.

petercooper 18y ago
And the US has the benefit of a near universal language. Mobility in the EU is not entirely limited by language, especially with manual work, but in professional circles it's a killer.. so EU mobility is pathetic compared to the US (hardly anyone I know in California is from California.. :))