5 ms·

> People want job training, and it got shoehorned into extra departments at liberal arts universities intended as aristocrat finishing schools I really wish th

> People want job training, and it got shoehorned into extra departments at liberal arts universities intended as aristocrat finishing schools I really wish the computer science degrees and even online courses spent like 30 mins on the history of computer science. The entire existence of this field has been dependent on those non job-training liberal arts degrees.

metamet 10mo ago
> I really wish the computer science degrees and even online courses spent like 30 mins on the history of computer science. Completely agree here. This would fall under the umbrella of liberal arts, which a lot of CS-only folks seem to find little to no value in. Most concepts in computer science--especially when it comes to programming--are fairly easy to learn if you're good at learning. Reading something and understanding it to the point that you can write a proper college level essay about it trains that muscle, which is a different skill than rote memorization.
nebula8804 10mo ago
Schools typically have no space to squeeze it in. Here is a typical pathway for a CS student: https://catalog.njit.edu/undergraduate/computing-sciences/computer-science/bs/ https://catalog.njit.edu/undergraduate/computing-sciences/co... A 4 year cs degree dumps you into heavy math, physics, and intro CS + Data structures in your first year to weed people out who cant cut it. Second year teaches fundamentals of CS (discrete math, concept of languages, understanding algorithms at least at a basic level). Third year is filled with more practical fundamentals (OS, DB, computer architecture + field specific courses the student wants). Finally the fourth year pieces everything together with more advanced versions of prior topics (algorithms for example) + repeated practical applications of all the concepts from years 1-3 to hopefully put the student on at least an 'ok' footing post graduation. I guess you can try to make the first lecture or two in CS101 about the history but most students don't even know if they want to pursue this journey. Would talking about Alan Turing's history really be appropriate in that class? I don't know really.
- dmurray 10mo ago
  > Schools typically have no space to squeeze it in. Here is a typical pathway for a CS student: https://catalog.njit.edu/undergraduate/computing-sciences/co https://catalog.njit.edu/undergraduate/computing-sciences/co... That course has 28 credits in first year, 3 of which are spent on computer science (arguably 3 more on "Roadmap to Computing"). Second year has a little more. Third and fourth year are heavy on CS/SE topics, but still have some time allocated to others. I don't disagree with students learning Calculus and Statistics and even Physics as part of a CS course, and I think it's excellent that they take at least two courses in English composition. But you can't look at that four-year curriculum and say nothing could possibly be cut (turned into an elective) in favour of a History of Computers module.
  - nebula8804 10mo ago
    I could concede that the "History or Humanities" elective in the 4th year could include an option for history of computing but I think the rationality of including that course in the first place is partly due to politics and accreditation requirements. Its also possible that the department wanted to round out the students education by providing something not related to STEM each semester. Note: these reasons I listed are just a guess based on my experience with the university. I still find it difficult to justify the placement of this course as a hard requirement because of how the rest of the STEM courses are structured. YWCC 307 is a very fluid course so maybe it can be squeezed in there? Anyway my point is that it is tough and I still feel that way.
trinix912 10mo ago
> I really wish the computer science degrees and even online courses spent like 30 mins on the history of computer science. The uni I went to did, in multiple classes, to the point where you could almost predict the "war story" you were about to be told :D
qcnguy 10mo ago
How has the existence of the computing industry depended on baristas with Women's Studies degrees? Because the history I know has it being 99% created by men with engineering skills doing paid work for large corporations.
- rKarpinski 10mo ago
  Steve Jobs taking Calligraphy [1] comes to mind [1] https://youtu.be/UF8uR6Z6KLc?si=339qOh2AlIr5QC2f&t=204 https://youtu.be/UF8uR6Z6KLc?si=339qOh2AlIr5QC2f&t=204
- tovej 10mo ago
  Men and women. Women were heavily involved in the engineering work at the beginning of the industry. The industry only became male dominated in the late 20th century: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_disparity_in_computing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_disparity_in_computing
  - qcnguy 10mo ago
    They weren't heavily involved and to claim otherwise is historical revisionism.
    - tovej 10mo ago
      They were heavily involved, computing was seen as a female profession. The human computers we had before digital ones were women, and they were very heavily involved until computers became profitable.
      - qcnguy 10mo ago
        Sure, if you don't use the standard definitions of common words you can argue false things. Children know that. It has no intellectual merit and you should stop playing silly word games to try and "win" an incorrect argument. The computing industry does not refer to people sitting in rows doing calculations by hand.
jvvw 10mo ago
Perhaps the people teaching thec purses don't feel qualified to talk about the history? I taught university-level computer science and I'm not a historian by any stretch of the imagination. I know something about the history and might mention things in passing but I don't think I could legitimately teach it to other people!

metamet 10mo ago

> I really wish the computer science degrees and even online courses spent like 30 mins on the history of computer science. Completely agree here. This would fall under the umbrella of liberal arts, which a lot of CS-only folks seem to find little to no value in. Most concepts in computer science--especially when it comes to programming--are fairly easy to learn if you're good at learning. Reading something and understanding it to the point that you can write a proper college level essay about it trains that muscle, which is a different skill than rote memorization.

nebula8804 10mo ago

Schools typically have no space to squeeze it in. Here is a typical pathway for a CS student: https://catalog.njit.edu/undergraduate/computing-sciences/computer-science/bs/ https://catalog.njit.edu/undergraduate/computing-sciences/co... A 4 year cs degree dumps you into heavy math, physics, and intro CS + Data structures in your first year to weed people out who cant cut it. Second year teaches fundamentals of CS (discrete math, concept of languages, understanding algorithms at least at a basic level). Third year is filled with more practical fundamentals (OS, DB, computer architecture + field specific courses the student wants). Finally the fourth year pieces everything together with more advanced versions of prior topics (algorithms for example) + repeated practical applications of all the concepts from years 1-3 to hopefully put the student on at least an 'ok' footing post graduation. I guess you can try to make the first lecture or two in CS101 about the history but most students don't even know if they want to pursue this journey. Would talking about Alan Turing's history really be appropriate in that class? I don't know really.

dmurray 10mo ago
> Schools typically have no space to squeeze it in. Here is a typical pathway for a CS student: https://catalog.njit.edu/undergraduate/computing-sciences/co https://catalog.njit.edu/undergraduate/computing-sciences/co... That course has 28 credits in first year, 3 of which are spent on computer science (arguably 3 more on "Roadmap to Computing"). Second year has a little more. Third and fourth year are heavy on CS/SE topics, but still have some time allocated to others. I don't disagree with students learning Calculus and Statistics and even Physics as part of a CS course, and I think it's excellent that they take at least two courses in English composition. But you can't look at that four-year curriculum and say nothing could possibly be cut (turned into an elective) in favour of a History of Computers module.
- nebula8804 10mo ago
  I could concede that the "History or Humanities" elective in the 4th year could include an option for history of computing but I think the rationality of including that course in the first place is partly due to politics and accreditation requirements. Its also possible that the department wanted to round out the students education by providing something not related to STEM each semester. Note: these reasons I listed are just a guess based on my experience with the university. I still find it difficult to justify the placement of this course as a hard requirement because of how the rest of the STEM courses are structured. YWCC 307 is a very fluid course so maybe it can be squeezed in there? Anyway my point is that it is tough and I still feel that way.

trinix912 10mo ago

> I really wish the computer science degrees and even online courses spent like 30 mins on the history of computer science. The uni I went to did, in multiple classes, to the point where you could almost predict the "war story" you were about to be told :D

qcnguy 10mo ago

How has the existence of the computing industry depended on baristas with Women's Studies degrees? Because the history I know has it being 99% created by men with engineering skills doing paid work for large corporations.

rKarpinski 10mo ago
Steve Jobs taking Calligraphy [1] comes to mind [1] https://youtu.be/UF8uR6Z6KLc?si=339qOh2AlIr5QC2f&t=204 https://youtu.be/UF8uR6Z6KLc?si=339qOh2AlIr5QC2f&t=204
tovej 10mo ago
Men and women. Women were heavily involved in the engineering work at the beginning of the industry. The industry only became male dominated in the late 20th century: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_disparity_in_computing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_disparity_in_computing
- qcnguy 10mo ago
  They weren't heavily involved and to claim otherwise is historical revisionism.
  - tovej 10mo ago
    They were heavily involved, computing was seen as a female profession. The human computers we had before digital ones were women, and they were very heavily involved until computers became profitable.
    - qcnguy 10mo ago
      Sure, if you don't use the standard definitions of common words you can argue false things. Children know that. It has no intellectual merit and you should stop playing silly word games to try and "win" an incorrect argument. The computing industry does not refer to people sitting in rows doing calculations by hand.

jvvw 10mo ago

Perhaps the people teaching thec purses don't feel qualified to talk about the history? I taught university-level computer science and I'm not a historian by any stretch of the imagination. I know something about the history and might mention things in passing but I don't think I could legitimately teach it to other people!